Medieval Oligarchy - end of my mapping

[theBastard]

If we could cut back the text then there would be room for a picture or two, which could make the map much more attractive. I like the style of the pictures created in this era a lot.
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Battle_of_Rozgony

I can use any picture as background. but Battle of Rozgony is a little after this time period, I think.
I do not want to see Angevins at the throne

[Jatekos]

Then we may have mixed up something in the beginning. You used maps that show the lands of the oligarchs in the beginning of the 14th century. The Aba's castle is marked on your map. 1312 was the date of the battle of Rozgony, where King Charles I of Hungary (aka Károly Róbert) defeated Aba Amádé.
The title of the map (Oligarchs during the 14th century) also suggests that this is the era in question.

[theBastard]

Then we may have mixed up something in the beginning. You used maps that show the lands of the oligarchs in the beginning of the 14th century. The Aba's castle is marked on your map. 1312 was the date of the battle of Rozgony, where King Charles I of Hungary (aka Károly Róbert) defeated Aba Amádé.
The title of the map (Oligarchs during the 14th century) also suggests that this is the era in question.

o.k. I´ve looked for some more pictures, but there are not much. could you look for any on Hungarian pages? I believe there should be more with this theme. thanks.

[natty dread]

Ok, I'll give you the correct spellings. Corrections bolded:

"when you lost your castle you loose" -> "when you lose your castle you will lose"

"Kingdom wait for new king" -> "The Kingdom waits for a new king"

"and the land is divided"

"They fight each other to gain more land"

"more power and influence to institute his" - change "his" to "their" since the sentence starts with a "they"


Bridge - passable, connects...

adjecent -> adjacent

Hope this helps.

[MarshalNey]

I've been following this map with some delight, I think this will be a charming historical map with some polishing

After some study, I think I see all of the gameplay elements clearly and I don't see any major conceptual problems. Good job! I have only one question- is this a conquest map or is it open deployment or some combination of open and neutral regions?

However, it did take me a little bit to sort out the gameplay- as you seem to be aware, the legend wording will need a fair amount of work. Also, I would keep the striped/different color look to the lands, it helps make this map clearer and as Jatekos said helps distinguish the icons.

There simply will have to be more space provided for the army numbers too. Use 888s- if you can fit those in, there should be plenty of room.

As for the English in the legend, I have some suggestions which might preserve the flavor while making more room on the map.

For the title, I think you could put the year 1301 A.D, and save some space- the title needs to be shorter anyway. Something like:
"The Hungarian Oligarchy- 1301 A.D." (the word 'Oligarchy' already has a Medieval flavor, so I think that we can take out the work Medieval. Also, '1301 A.D.' is by definition in the 14th century.)

For the history, then, here's what I've got:
"The King of Hungary, last of the Arpad dynasty, is dead.
The Kingdom waits for a new ruler. Three foreign candidates have split the land between powerful nobles- the Oligarchs.
They fight to gain more power and bring his favourite to the throne."

For the losing condition and victory objective:
"My Lord, control all Royal Castles for one turn to end this bloody war.
Beware my Lord; if your Oligarch Castle falls, all is lost."

The gameplay part of the legend I'll need to think upon a bit. I can't help but think that you can lose the bridge icon and simply put a bigger Town/Castle icon on the river directly, but then you'll have to indicate which region will work for the bonus.

Marshal Ney

[theBastard]

thanks natty. it realy helps to me

I've been following this map with some delight, I think this will be a charming historical map with some polishing

After some study, I think I see all of the gameplay elements clearly and I don't see any major conceptual problems. Good job! I have only one question- is this a conquest map or is it open deployment or some combination of open and neutral regions?

thanks Marshal. I changed gameplay, when you will have a little time, try look at older version - maybe some of it you also like. but there were some too complex things.

this will be combination, I think. I hate conquest maps. each player will start with one Oligarchs castle (in the regions with red sripes - these were most important Oligarchs), with two Towns and maybe with two/three regions.

However, it did take me a little bit to sort out the gameplay- as you seem to be aware, the legend wording will need a fair amount of work. Also, I would keep the striped/different color look to the lands, it helps make this map clearer and as Jatekos said helps distinguish the icons.

the stripes are not more necessary I think. they were important for older gameplay.

There simply will have to be more space provided for the army numbers too. Use 888s- if you can fit those in, there should be plenty of room.

uf, then I must again enlarge icons. and I´m not sure if there will be enough space. will see...

As for the English in the legend, I have some suggestions which might preserve the flavor while making more room on the map.

For the title, I think you could put the year 1301 A.D, and save some space- the title needs to be shorter anyway. Something like:
"The Hungarian Oligarchy- 1301 A.D." (the word 'Oligarchy' already has a Medieval flavor, so I think that we can take out the work Medieval. Also, '1301 A.D.' is by definition in the 14th century.)

agree, just the 14th century is better as only year 1301 because in this year all started and ends in 1321 AD.

For the history, then, here's what I've got:
"The King of Hungary, last of the Arpad dynasty, is dead.
The Kingdom waits for a new ruler. Three foreign candidates have split the land between powerful nobles- the Oligarchs.
They fight to gain more power and bring his favourite to the throne."

ok, will try to do this shorter. just these candidates did not split the land - Oligarchs split it.

For the losing condition and victory objective:
"My Lord, control all Royal Castles for one turn to end this bloody war.
Beware my Lord; if your Oligarch Castle falls, all is lost."

ok.

The gameplay part of the legend I'll need to think upon a bit. I can't help but think that you can lose the bridge icon and simply put a bigger Town/Castle icon on the river directly, but then you'll have to indicate which region will work for the bonus.
Marshal Ney

I´m afraid not. I can not see any possibility how to indicate to which region Town/Castle belongs...

thanks guys for advices.
another graphics update. on yours notices I will work later...

Click image to enlarge.

[Jatekos]

http://www.hung-art.hu/frames.html?/mag ... index.html
This is a really nice piece of art. This is the cover page (created before 1360) of Chronicon Hungariae Pictum. Very nice picture with ornamental frame, you could try using something from it as the frame of your map.

[theBastard]

http://www.hung-art.hu/frames.html?/magyar/zmisc/miniatur/14_sz/kronika/index.html
This is a really nice piece of art. This is the cover page (created before 1360) of Chronicon Hungariae Pictum. Very nice picture with ornamental frame, you could try using something from it as the frame of your map.

thanks. I like picture as I have now at the map. you are right about border, but I must do some more space for it...

next udate:

enlarged icons (I´m afraid more is not possible)
added 888 numbers
changed text
borders around legends

Click image to enlarge.

[theBastard]

what about this, guys?
all changes are in, just some graphics edits:

Click image to enlarge.

[isaiah40]

I like the second one better, but the opacity of the background can be reduced by half. That is make it lighter so it is not so distracting.

[Jatekos]

- I like the frame that you are using, but the problem is, that it is not continous. It has an outer border, but it has no inner border. Maybe a line at the inner border of the frame with matching colour would make it look more finished.
- The picture fits nice as background, the flag on the top left and the castle on the top right look good. The bottom left part is too dark though. Would it be possible to amend that part to be more lighter?
- I don't really like the text boxes. They don't match the theme and they are crossing the country borders. I think you should hide the borders of the text boxes.

[theBastard]

- I like the frame that you are using, but the problem is, that it is not continous. It has an outer border, but it has no inner border. Maybe a line at the inner border of the frame with matching colour would make it look more finished.
- The picture fits nice as background, the flag on the top left and the castle on the top right look good. The bottom left part is too dark though. Would it be possible to amend that part to be more lighter?
- I don't really like the text boxes. They don't match the theme and they are crossing the country borders. I think you should hide the borders of the text boxes.

hm, I must say that I agree with your notices. the frame is the result of my playing with graphics. here is better one.
also I do not like legend borders, so they are deleted. I think there are no needed.
about left bottom part - there is sea, so I did is light as is possible - what looks fine to me. more light looks bad.

thanks you for interest and feedbacks.

Click image to enlarge.

[Jatekos]

about left bottom part - there is sea, so I did is light as is possible - what looks fine to me. more light looks bad.

Thanks for the quick updates. Nice progress.
I completely forgot that the dark place is the sea on the map. Why don't you just use the original blue for the sea and not the background image? I think it would look better if it was not covered with people.

[theBastard]

Thanks for the quick updates. Nice progress.
I completely forgot that the dark place is the sea on the map. Why don't you just use the original blue for the sea and not the background image? I think it would look better if it was not covered with people.

not at all. I want to see this map in the next foundry soon
when is sea without background it looks bad - too empty. I did something, hope it looks fine:

Click image to enlarge.

[Jatekos]

A couple of further suggestions:

- Regarding the line at the inner border of the frame: I noticed that e.g. on the top right (above the text) it is dark and thick, while e.g. on the top left it is much lighter. There are areas where the line looks thinner, e.g. on the bottom right, under the text. I think you should use the same colour and thickness on all sides. Maybe a line with the same thickness and colour to the one that is within the frame (at the edge of the white ornaments) would suite best.

- I understand that a simple blue sea would look too empty, but the problem is, that right now it does not really look like a sea. The background of the sea is a land battle now. In my opinion, it would be better if we had something more related to a sea as background there. How about adding some boats (see link below) and waves onto the blue sea?
http://books.google.hu/books?id=IwIHjhR ... &q&f=false

- One minor suggestion: Could you use a bit lighter brown for the royal castles? It would make the windows much more noticable on the buildings, in my opinion.

- "Country towns connected by bridges are adjacent" - does this statement still apply to the map? I could not find any towns that are directly connected. Even Pozsony and Győr (on the Northwest) are connected only through Sopron. Or does this mean that e.g. Pozsony is directly connected to Sopron (and vica versa)?

- Also, as Industrial Helix suggested previusly: "You should also state that castles are completely surrounded by their territory."

[theBastard]

A couple of further suggestions:

- Regarding the line at the inner border of the frame: I noticed that e.g. on the top right (above the text) it is dark and thick, while e.g. on the top left it is much lighter. There are areas where the line looks thinner, e.g. on the bottom right, under the text. I think you should use the same colour and thickness on all sides. Maybe a line with the same thickness and colour to the one that is within the frame (at the edge of the white ornaments) would suite best.

I see what you say. I do not want things "geometric" accurate (except playable map - borders and what must be clear for gameplay). as you can see on pictures posted by you - there are much inaccuracy, because these are medieval pictures made by hand.
if this will be still big problem I can do it.

- I understand that a simple blue sea would look too empty, but the problem is, that right now it does not really look like a sea. The background of the sea is a land battle now. In my opinion, it would be better if we had something more related to a sea as background there. How about adding some boats (see link below) and waves onto the blue sea?
http://books.google.hu/books?id=IwIHjhR ... &q&f=false

yes there is land battle on the sea. but believe me the problem is not only that sea looks too empty, the second problem is that the backgroud picture is not complet and looks .... peculiar. the boats have nothing to do with theme, I´m afraid.
look at Third Crusade map - there is also land background on the sea and how much I like it

- One minor suggestion: Could you use a bit lighter brown for the royal castles? It would make the windows much more noticable on the buildings, in my opinion.

yes. or maybe to acuminate them...

- "Country towns connected by bridges are adjacent" - does this statement still apply to the map? I could not find any towns that are directly connected. Even Pozsony and Győr (on the Northwest) are connected only through Sopron. Or does this mean that e.g. Pozsony is directly connected to Sopron (and vica versa)?

your last sentence is right. this is because bonus "+2 for Oligarch Castle with its land and two adjacent County Towns witht heir regions". so it works as example: M. Csak (and Trencsen), Pozsony (with Nyitra), Zolyom (with Hont) give you this bonus...

- Also, as Industrial Helix suggested previusly: "You should also state that castles are completely surrounded by their territory."

is it realy needed? I think that each castle has its own region and no one has unclear borders. this notice would be needed for old version of gameplay...
but I have not problem with this. just need help with english - to say it exactly and in short.

[Jatekos]

I see what you say. I do not want things "geometric" accurate (except playable map - borders and what must be clear for gameplay). as you can see on pictures posted by you - there are much inaccuracy, because these are medieval pictures made by hand.
if this will be still big problem I can do it.

Then I have another suggestion. Why don't you finish the inner border of the frame by hand? I mean by drawing lines that finish the border (by completing the shapes that are already there) instead of a straight line on each side? I hope this makes sense.

yes there is land battle on the sea. but believe me the problem is not only that sea looks too empty, the second problem is that the backgroud picture is not complet and looks .... peculiar. the boats have nothing to do with theme, I´m afraid.
look at Third Crusade map - there is also land background on the sea and how much I like it

I checked the Third Crusade map. The difference is, that the sea is coloured with different shades of blue there, while here we have a colorful sea. The blue sea just highlights the colours on this map. Would it be possible to somehow change that part by keeping the current image, but updaing it to contain only blue tones, like the other map?


"+2 for Oligarch Castle with its land and two adjacent County Towns with their regions" - this is pretty clear and self-explanatory from the legend.
"Country towns connected by bridges are adjacent" - this suggests that there are towns that are connected to other towns directly by bridges, which is not the case.

[theBastard]

Then I have another suggestion. Why don't you finish the inner border of the frame by hand? I mean by drawing lines that finish the border (by completing the shapes that are already there) instead of a straight line on each side? I hope this makes sense.

this should works.

I checked the Third Crusade map. The difference is, that the sea is coloured with different shades of blue there, while here we have a colorful sea. The blue sea just highlights the colours on this map. Would it be possible to somehow change that part by keeping the current image, but updaing it to contain only blue tones, like the other map?

I could do lower fulnes of blue more. can not see anyway how to do more...

"+2 for Oligarch Castle with its land and two adjacent County Towns with their regions" - this is pretty clear and self-explanatory from the legend.
"Country towns connected by bridges are adjacent" - this suggests that there are towns that are connected to other towns directly by bridges, which is not the case.

aha, idea here was that if region of County Town has not border with region of Oligarch Castle, but there is connection by bridge it means like they have border (for bonus valid only)...
so maybe better would be: " County towns connected by bridges with opposite region are adjacent"?

[theBastard]

the frame edited. sea in the left bottom corner edited. also deleted one river between Zagrab and Szava for balanced gameplay. text will be edited after advice help of any Englishman (or somebody with better English as me)

Click image to enlarge.

[Jatekos]

- I like this frame better than the previous one, although you could try a hand-drawn inner boundary (not a straight line) to the original frame as well. Not sure how much work would it be, but it could even look better ( or more medieval ).
- Sorry to be a pain, but I'd still prefer blue tones for the sea, and no red, brown, or orange colours. I'd say that you could add some texture to the sea, but it would still keep the colours, so I'm not sure. Please note that I do not use any graphical software, so I don't know if what I am asking is possible or not, or how much work would it mean.
- I am also looking forward to see the lighter royal castles.

I'd like to hear other's opinions, especially if they know any graphical tricks to make the sea more bluish, with keeping the current background of the sea, but without the red, orange and brown colours. I like the rest of the map with the current colours, but the sea area needs to be changed in my opinion.

[natty dread]

The frame should be fully opaque, ie. the sea should not show through it.

Also, if you change the layer with the knights on horses and stuff into black and white (colors>desaturate) and change the layer mode to "grain merge" or "hard light" it would probably look better.

[theBastard]

- I like this frame better than the previous one, although you could try a hand-drawn inner boundary (not a straight line) to the original frame as well. Not sure how much work would it be, but it could even look better ( or more medieval ).

I did it by hand at the first. but it did not looks fine, becasue it had the same colour, so there were no lighter or darker parts as has all frame. and I´m not so skilled to do it better, so we must do with this...

- Sorry to be a pain, but I'd still prefer blue tones for the sea, and no red, brown, or orange colours. I'd say that you could add some texture to the sea, but it would still keep the colours, so I'm not sure. Please note that I do not use any graphical software, so I don't know if what I am asking is possible or not, or how much work would it mean.

will try natty´s advice...

- I am also looking forward to see the lighter royal castles.

ofcourse, I forgot this.

I'd like to hear other's opinions, especially if they know any graphical tricks to make the sea more bluish, with keeping the current background of the sea, but without the red, orange and brown colours.

me too

I like the rest of the map with the current colours, but the sea area needs to be changed in my opinion.

do not konw what with this. as I said I will try natty´s advice and could a little "play" with filters or colour settings...

The frame should be fully opaque, ie. the sea should not show through it.

yes. will do this.

Also, if you change the layer with the knights on horses and stuff into black and white (colors>desaturate) and change the layer mode to "grain merge" or "hard light" it would probably look better.

will try. but than it lost colours, yes?

thanks guys for interest and notices.

[theBastard]

so what do you think now?

Click image to enlarge.

[Jatekos]

so what do you think now?

I miss the colours very much. It was so nice to see the colours on the map.
The sea is quite good though.

[natty dread]

It's way better without the colours. It's easier to read the legend, and doesn't steal the attention from the playable area.

You probably should still lower the opacity of the knight graphics a bit, to make the text stand out better.

Also, the title is getting lost in there. You need to make it stand out more. You could try it in white. With maybe a black stroke.