Limes

[Permafrost]

I'm very busy for whole January and Beginning of February. There will be an update but not soon

[Permafrost]

A small question before next update: What keeps the current map version from getting further into the workshops?

[Industrial Helix]

There's something about the graphics.... like an unfinished feel to it... and its putting me off. While its ridiculous that a map should have finished graphics as it walks out of the melting pot, there's been some concern lately over whether a mapmaker can make the map a finished product when the time comes. So I'm hesitant at the moment.

Gameplay wise, its solid. It conveys the history and military dynamics of the area very well. Nothing on the gameplay seems ridiculous. We need more ancient maps and this works well.

But going back to graphics... its a complicated map but that doesn't mean the instructions need to be complicated. With involved maps, clarity is essential and this map isn't clear as day. For example, mountains are impassable except when they are within a province. For simplicity's sake, get rid of the mountains inside a province so a player doesn't spend time looking for them. You would also benefit greatly from a segmented legend. Talk about rivers and box it in on the legend. Talk about impassables and box it in, ect.

Your biggest problem is whether or not the numbers are going to fit on the small map. But really you've got room to make it happen if some areas are too small. But heads up, this will be required to get through the graphics workshop.

You want your territory names completely on each territory, or as close as possible. The way they are now makes things somewhat hard on the eyes.

The last thing that I think you should adopt is grouping the territories east of the Limes into visible groups, rather than colored letters and numbers. It doesn't have to be colors but perhaps carrying shades of the green. See the attached image, its crude but hopefully it will convey my point. Obviously you wouldn't altering the whole image, but the green areas beneath.



Other graphical quibbles would be that your lakes over where Denmark would later be look as if they're floating over the forests, rather than surrounded by them.

Lastly, your territories in Gaul have no borders... Gs5 and Gs2, for example... R4, r3... You need to clearly delineate these areas which are labeled.

[natty dread]

IH, you said it well. I agree with everything IH said. I would also add, like I've said before, get rid of the rivers in rome - if they don't do anything they don't need to be on the map. Functionality is key.

[Permafrost]

Update

[19.01.11] The big business update has arrived. I've fixed a lot of things which were mentioned by the map team and which troubled us too. The (for gameplay) useless, only graphical mountains and rivers are now transparent or stroke. German territories are now wider at many sites as well as GS4 in Rome. Hopefully, this will solve the army number problem. Ritual places and Roman forts stay the only territories with cyrcles. German continents are colored now for easier distinction. We've opned up the southeaternmost connection between Romans and Germans to attack in both direction because Noricum and Raetia seemed to a too good winning position. Furthermore ritual places give more bonuses to make them even more attractive avoid unused German territories (experience we've made a few weeks ago).

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

Big improvement... I still don't get R5 vs. R3... actually I do now. R5 is the fort? Maybe you guys could work out a new style of the forts, one which includes the name and the fort in one style of graphic.

Try to get as many of those territory names on the actual territory and not on the woods.

Your Ch and Su territories are indistinguishable.

[Permafrost]

Ok, the forts will include their own numbers next time and the contrast in color between Chatti and Sugambri will be better too. But I cannot promise that there is enough space to glue every name into the territories. That is, because of a smaller map version (600px times 600px?) which also should be avaible and playable at the very end. Dispite the gamestyle is Risk I don't want too much risk in this case

[natty dread]

Compromises are often good... but sometimes, when you compromise, you end up satisfying neither party and just make it worse for both...

What I'm getting at is, the transparent mountains and rivers don't really add anything to the map, they just serve to clutter it, and they don't actually look good at all, so it'd be better to just remove them alltogether. You don't need to represent the actual geography 100% on a map that's intended for playing a game. Like the old foundry saying goes: Function trumps form...

[Industrial Helix]

Well, your best bet is to go to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=466&t=48259

Get the numbers and paste them on each territory of the map and see how it looks. Then shrink your map down to 640x600 or less and do the same thing again with the numbers. This will give you an idea if the small version is going to work or not. Post the small version with the numbers when you've got it done.

[Permafrost]

Ok, I just tried to put in some extreme army numbers (e.g. "r99") and army cyrcles for Roman forts and ritual places are not enough for a smaller version. Beside of this, there might be only 1 or 2 territories which could be a little wider to avoid overlap with impassables. For the moment, I don't have enough time to put in numbers in all territories.

There is enough space to give every number an adequate home but this might rather be a concern for the graphical workshop.

[theBastard]

I see this one first time (how can I missed historical map ???)
this look as interesting map with great progress and interesting concept...

I have some notices:

I like as you add land between forests. but rivers are a little problem for me.
1, it is not exactly clear where ends dark part of rivers and where starts light part of river (Rhyne as example).
2, you have territories on the both riverbanks, but sometimes it is not clear (for first look). maybe some of territories could lie only on one riverbank (example F4 border does not need to cross river - F4 has border with An1 without crossing river).
3, you could do forrests not so large somewhere - so you will have more space for territories.
4, could be forts a crossing points on the limes? so there will be no more one way assaults - everybody must conquer at the first fort and only than cross the limes? (from both sides - from Rome to Germania, from Germania to Rome)

[natty dread]

Then shrink your map down to 640x600

That's 630x600

[Industrial Helix]

Then shrink your map down to 640x600

That's 630x600

So it is...


But yeah, we need everything to fit on the small map. Take some time to do it and then we'll move on. It's important that it gets done in the melting pot because in the gameplay workshop you'll be making changes which don't take into consideration that you might need more space later on. After a few maps got to the Graphics workshop and it was realized that the small versions looked like smashed in kaleidoscopes the mapmakers were very upset that they had to revise things, ect. So I prefer to hit the things that might be big issues later here.

[Permafrost]

Ok, it has to be done before.

[MrBenn]

Willkommen in der Foundry!

Sie haben eine gute beginnen gemacht!


I'll switch back into English now, before my rusty knowledge of German shows me up

Seriously though, I'm very impressed at the beginning you have made - the concerns that I have are mostly around making the map as easy to play on our monitors as you have found it on the tabletop. At the moment it's a bit difficult to see exactly how things fit together, with territory borders, connections and bonuses all a bit confusing. There is definitely some promise here, but if you can work out how to declutter things, then you should have a good map in the making.

One thing that really bugs me is the map name... I would suggest changing it to "Limes Germanicus", or "German Frontier 83-260AD (The Limes)" or something that gives a feel for the area.

I'm really wanting to push this map into the gameplay workshop, but would like to see another update first. Your focus needs to be on making your map as user-friendly as possible so we can understand and assess the gameplay

[Teflon Kris]

"Limes Germanicus" would get my vote from MrBenn's suggestions.

You've done some work on making things clearer (i.e. the impassables and making the germanicus regions clearer), so maybe some more work on that is your next step?

Good work so far, keep going

[Permafrost]

We will focus on mangaing army numbers now by reducing impassables even further. As long as there is not enough space for them on the smaller version this map won't be ever released, I guess. When it comes to the name: I have thought it's a short and intuitive and relfects it's Latin roots. Least goes for notations on the map too.

[MrBenn]

We will focus on mangaing army numbers now by reducing impassables even further. As long as there is not enough space for them on the smaller version this map won't be ever released, I guess. When it comes to the name: I have thought it's a short and intuitive and relfects it's Latin roots. Least goes for notations on the map too.

Except that the first thing most people will think of is this:

[AndyDufresne]

We will focus on mangaing army numbers now by reducing impassables even further. As long as there is not enough space for them on the smaller version this map won't be ever released, I guess. When it comes to the name: I have thought it's a short and intuitive and relfects it's Latin roots. Least goes for notations on the map too.

Except that the first thing most people will think of is this:

When I first wandered into this topic weeks ago when it was started, I did indeed think someone was making a 'lime' map---and wondered if we were going to have a fruit-bowl Map Pack. Which, coincidentally, I'd like to see.


--Andy

[Victor Sullivan]

When I first wandered into this topic weeks ago when it was started, I did indeed think someone was making a 'lime' map---and wondered if we were going to have a fruit-bowl Map Pack. Which, coincidentally, I'd like to see.


--Andy

Hop to it Andy! You should make a Fruit Salad map

Aside from that, I think all the territories need army circles, as it's more difficult to see the individual territories than it should be.

[Permafrost]

I've erased normal army cyrcles because they concealed the map itself and nobody liked them



And Limes stays Limes because Limes aren't primary limes from my point of view

[tokle]

And Limes stays Limes because Limes aren't primary limes from my point of view

There is another reason to change the title to Limes Germanicus, though. The reason that this was not the only limes. Border fortifications like these existed on all the troublesome spots of the empire's borders.

[Permafrost]

Most people especially in Europe think of this border as the Limes. It's like naming a map Memphis. Which Memphis do you like the most? Or Pearl Habour: Which time period would you think of? The name won't change but another things which have been mentioned above and I hope I get the next update ready soon because of the already written exams.

[MrBenn]

Most people especially in Europe think of this border as the Limes. It's like naming a map Memphis. Which Memphis do you like the most? Or Pearl Habour: Which time period would you think of? The name won't change but another things which have been mentioned above and I hope I get the next update ready soon because of the already written exams.

I would avoid generalising where possible

I would strongly encourage - if not actually insisting - that you use the title "Limes Germanicus" for the map. There are several 'Roman 'Limes' across Europe, and it would be better for your map to denote which specific area you are referencing:


That aside, I'm looking forward to seeing your next update

[Permafrost]

Wow, another update and another upgrade of readability. I've changed the the method for creating smaller map versions. Now they look like higher resolution with clearer Text (reminds me of old PC games ). We discussed about and erased one territory of Frisioni. There is also sporatically more space in territories. Roman interior boundaries along rivers now should be visible. The greenish german continents now have more different background colors. But more crucial: The army circles came back on stage but with a different more open look. The purpose is to help distinguishing between territory names and army numbers. As you can see this did something (but not everything). Maybe we don't have a choice and must except that this will stay a little bit irritating.

Click image to enlarge.

--------->---|Small version !!!with army numbers!!!|---<---------