LOTR | Lord of the Rings | Middle Earth | Tolkien

by **DJENRE** on Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:54 am

This is the post about midgard http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=358&t=75548&hilit=midgard

ANd midgard has names properly taken from Tolkien Universe : Fangorn, Sauron, Nazgul, Smaug ....

by **natty dread** on Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:58 am

Yes but not in context.

Anyway, read this again:

if you're going to make a tolkien map, you can't use any of the names (places or anything else) from the original. No copyright infringements.

Then, we already have Midgard and Dawn of Ages, so your map will have to be different from them.

So, keeping these two requirements in mind, I'm looking forward to a draft

by **DJENRE** on Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:20 am

And midgard is copyright for Ragnarok...

So I could do my map if I only choose the good title...
That could be "A ring", "Another shire" OR "Hairy feet world"

by **Riskismy** on Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:46 am

Well, there IS one way you can use both maps and names, copyrighted or not: Parody.

From http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

Brad Templeton wrote:6) "If I make up my own stories, but base them on another work, my new work belongs to me."
False. U.S. Copyright law is quite explicit that the making of what are called "derivative works" -- works based or derived from another copyrighted work -- is the exclusive province of the owner of the original work. This is true even though the making of these new works is a highly creative process. If you write a story using settings or characters from somebody else's work, you need that author's permission.
Yes, that means almost all "fan fiction" is arguably a copyright violation. If you want to publish a story about Jim Kirk and Mr. Spock, you need Paramount's permission, plain and simple. Now, as it turns out, many, but not all holders of popular copyrights turn a blind eye to "fan fiction" or even subtly encourage it because it helps them. Make no mistake, however, that it is entirely up to them whether to do that.

There is a major exception -- criticism and parody. The fair use provision says that if you want to make fun of something like Star Trek, you don't need their permission to include Mr. Spock. This is not a loophole; you can't just take a non-parody and claim it is one on a technicality. The way "fair use" works is you get sued for copyright infringement, and you admit you did copy, but that your copying was a fair use. A subjective judgment on, among other things, your goals, is then made.

However, it's also worth noting that a court has never ruled on this issue, because fan fiction cases always get settled quickly when the defendant is a fan of limited means sued by a powerful publishing company. Some argue that completely non-commercial fan fiction might be declared a fair use if courts get to decide. You can read more

As he points out, it actually would have to be funny, I guess. Not sure how they decide on that.

My guess is it probably still won't fly with the admins. Though I think it's being overly cautious, I can relate to not wanting to be sued by the likes of HarperCollins.
Personally, I wouldn't like to see Tolkien's work made fun of either.

What a shame

by **Riskismy** on Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:48 am

heh. There is the criticism option: Beleriand: The way it should have been!

by **thenobodies80** on Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:41 am

DJENRE wrote:And midgard is copyright for Ragnarok...

Thanks for spoitting this out, I'll investigate on it.

Anyway it's not a Just a title/word thing, I direct you to a my post into DoA map thread: viewtopic.php?f=358&t=92583&start=45#p2173800
Your map has the same problem, there's a clear and direct connetion with Tolkien's works and it can't be done.
In any case, lackattack (the webmaster) has the final say on all maps, and Tolkien's based maps are 99,9% a big no no.

My suggestion is to use your imagination.
Kabanellas did it and you can see now what great map DoA is!
Imagination is the key.

Nobodies

by **macbone** on Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:24 pm

Well, there's always Bored of the Rings. =)

by **isaiah40** on Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:51 pm

Here are 4 factors to consider for fair use - Taken from Title 17 United States Code Section 107

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
2. The nature of the copyrighted work
3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work

The distinction between fair use and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.

It also should be noted that the US Supreme Court in 1994 ruled that a parody MAY BE considered as fair use not requiring the authors permission or royalties to be paid.

Now all of this stated, CC is for profit so you cannot use anything from anyone. Now you can trace a map distort it so that there is a small similarity to it, redo the names, regions, title etc. and not be in violation of the US Copyright laws. The Canadian laws are similar to the US (they just have to copy us).

SO if you want to make this map change it so that it is inherently different then the original and we can go from there.

by **greenoaks** on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:42 pm

isaiah40 wrote:SO if you want to make this map change it so that it is inherently different then the original and we can go from there.

which would be pointless

as soon as the map is quenched someone else will come along with a brilliant new idea that he can't believe no one here has thought of - how about a map of middle earth.

by **DJENRE** on Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:24 am

Riskismy wrote:Well, there IS one way you can use both maps and names, copyrighted or not: Parody.

As he points out, it actually would have to be funny, I guess. Not sure how they decide on that.

My guess is it probably still won't fly with the admins. Though I think it's being overly cautious, I can relate to not wanting to be sued by the likes of HarperCollins.
Personally, I wouldn't like to see Tolkien's work made fun of either.

What a shame

Thank you for that. I didn't found it when I looked for copyright on google.
Funny is not what I want either. Do I have to set some hairy feet points to reach on the map to hold victory?

thenobodies80 wrote:
DJENRE wrote:And midgard is copyright for Ragnarok...

Thanks for spoitting this out, I'll investigate on it.

I didn't want to do a mess about other maps...

They firstly took it in Norvegian mythology : Midgard (an Anglicised form of Old Norse Miðgarðr) is one of the Nine Worlds and is an old Germanic name for our world and is the home of Humans, with the literal meaning "middle enclosure".

thenobodies80 wrote:Anyway it's not a Just a title/word thing, I direct you to a my post into DoA map thread: viewtopic.php?f=358&t=92583&start=45#p2173800
Your map has the same problem, there's a clear and direct connetion with Tolkien's works and it can't be done.
In any case, lackattack (the webmaster) has the final say on all maps, and Tolkien's based maps are 99,9% a big no no.
My suggestion is to use your imagination.
Kabanellas did it and you can see now what great map DoA is!
Imagination is the key.
Nobodies

DOn't tell lackattack about it, I'm sure he has a lot of work to do and if Cartographers or TD tell something, they surely have approval from lackattack.

isaiah40 wrote: [...]
SO if you want to make this map change it so that it is inherently different then the original and we can go from there.

Yes so if I understand you, I can keep the map like that (I mean design) and only change names. and that could work even if the map is taken from tolkine universe? I don't understand why words and not design are copyrighted....

Something else, if words are copyrighted, they are in english only.... If I do this map in French with french names, there is no more copyright as translation of english names of places can have different versions....

I think we definitely need a lawyer here...lol

by **DJENRE** on Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:41 am

And I had like the same answer on another thread about LEGO maps :

DJENRE wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Copyright. Won't happen.

C'mon
We're just doing a LEGOtm like game on a RISKtm like site.

natty_dread wrote:See, CC is not a Risk site. It's a site of a world domination game that some consider similar to Risk.

If you take away the name "LEGO" from LEGOs, what do you have left? Coloured blocks. What kind of interesting map can be made out of coloured blocks?

So we could do a map of domination war that some consider similar to Tolkien universe. :lol:

by **natty dread** on Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:58 am

So we could do a map of domination war that some consider similar to Tolkien universe.

Sure you could! We already have at least 2 maps like that.

by **DJENRE** on Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:16 am

natty_dread wrote:
So we could do a map of domination war that some consider similar to Tolkien universe.

Sure you could! We already have at least 2 maps like that.

I was actually thinking about my map with names and design like it appears and if some consider similar to Tolkien, we don't care...

by **natty dread** on Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:25 am

DJENRE wrote:I was actually thinking about my map with names and design like it appears and if some consider similar to Tolkien, we don't care...

Sadly, it doesn't quite work that way.

by **DJENRE** on Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:51 am

Then, again, why it work that way for the whole site but not for individual maps?

by **natty dread** on Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:28 am

It doesn't. CC doesn't use the same map as Risk, names are changed. Also names of dice are changed (intensity cubes), all other feature names are changed (regions, assault, etc.)

by **greenoaks** on Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:29 am

natty_dread wrote:It doesn't. CC doesn't use the same map as Risk, names are changed. Also names of dice are changed (intensity cubes), all other feature names are changed (regions, assault, etc.)

and Risk does not own this planet so if we want a map of it we can have one

middle earth is owned by someone so we can't use it without their permission, so stop reading this and go get it

by **jd94** on Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:54 pm

intensity cubes? Really?

hypothetically speaking, could someone make a map of, say, an individual country from a book, that doesnt have a map drawn for it (by the author/publisher) already? Would it be fair use to synthesise your own map, using the book's names and information, but not using actual pictures from the book?

by **jimfinn** on Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:03 pm

we DO have the diskworld map though

by **natty dread** on Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:32 pm

jimfinn wrote:we DO have the diskworld map though

Permission was granted by the copyright holder for that map.

jd94 wrote:hypothetically speaking, could someone make a map of, say, an individual country from a book, that doesnt have a map drawn for it (by the author/publisher) already? Would it be fair use to synthesise your own map, using the book's names and information, but not using actual pictures from the book?

Yes, that would be possible, in theory. Depends if there are individual copyrights/trademarks for the names in the book.

by **tkr4lf** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:12 am

I'm just curious here. Was permission granted to use the Tamriel map? Because absolutely nothing really looks changed from the original source.

I'm guessing it was, but again, I'm curious to find out.

by **greenoaks** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:20 am

tkr4lf wrote:I'm just curious here. Was permission granted to use the Tamriel map? Because absolutely nothing really looks changed from the original source.

I'm guessing it was, but again, I'm curious to find out.

there is no mention of permission obtained in the map thread, nor was the question ever raised

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=358&t=1129&start=0

by **natty dread** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:39 am

greenoaks wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:I'm just curious here. Was permission granted to use the Tamriel map? Because absolutely nothing really looks changed from the original source.

I'm guessing it was, but again, I'm curious to find out.

there is no mention of permission obtained in the map thread, nor was the question ever raised

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=358&t=1129&start=0

Yeah, that map was made in the crazy old first days of CC... Standards were way lower back then, and it may have slipped through the cracks.

by **greenoaks** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:18 am

natty_dread wrote:Yeah, that map was made in the crazy old first days of CC... Standards were way lower back then, and it may have slipped through the cracks.

that's what i thought as it was started way back in 2006

i read a lot of the posts and there was many comments re: how awesome that map was

i don't think it is, i have lost every game i've played on it :oops: