Medieval Oligarchy - end of my mapping

[theBastard]

I work on new map from my favourite era - Medieval. this map is about Kingdom of Hungary and its problems during early XIV century. my country Slovakia was part of Kingdom of Hungary, so also threfore I did it

last version with less opacity of background picture and small edits.

Click image to enlarge.

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next udate:

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this draft was quickly finished, thanks to thenobodies that I did not work on it detailed more days .

I have some questions about GP:
1, each player will have "his" Lordship (Oligarchs castle - as starting position with two Towns across the map). so will it be good if condition to lose game will be "if player lost his Oligarchs castle"?

2, and if yes, than maybe do regions around Oligarchs castles "-1 army per turn"?

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[Industrial Helix]

We could use some more medieval maps

Well, firstly, put your map in context. Place it in the reference to some other geographical area.

I don't understand why areas under the King lose an army...


The idea, in concept, seems pretty good but I think some work needs to be done to bring into a full fledged idea. I see great potential in this, with its myriad rivers and mountain passes. I think you can achieve something quite fun here.

[theBastard]

We could use some more medieval maps

yes, yes

Well, firstly, put your map in context. Place it in the reference to some other geographical area.

ofcourse, this is only quick base draft. it is central europe area.

I don't understand why areas under the King lose an army...

this map is about Oligarchs. no one had control of this area - this is King´s lands. and I could do harder crossing the map, because for example Csak Mate did not fight (in battle field) with Kan Laszlo.

The idea, in concept, seems pretty good but I think some work needs to be done to bring into a full fledged idea.

I can not find what more I can do. all ideas are welcome... ofcourse explantation in legend will need better English.

I see great potential in this, with its myriad rivers and mountain passes. I think you can achieve something quite fun here.

thanks for kind words .

[OliverFA]

I agree with Industrial Helix. The idea is good, but you need to work on it. I am sure that with some effort and commitment, it can become an unique map. And above all, a funny one. Maps are supposed to be entertaining after all

First, I know it's just a draft. But to me it seems difficult to see the map and get a good idea about wich territory link to wich territory. I would advise to make things a bit clearer. Like in the Age of Magic, New World and Feudal maps.

Second, to me it seems like you have thrown a lot of random bonuses and maluses with no particular reason. I say you have to build on a concept. Make a concept and then bonuses and maluses will come naturally as a result of that concept.

Third, I'd rename "Oligarch" to "Duke". Each area is a duchy, each 3-territory area is a county and each territory is a barony. All Duchies form the Kingdom of Hungary

Fourth, why there are so many royal castles? I thougt there was only one kingdom.

So, here is my final suggestions (just something to start with, so you get an idea):

-Build upon the concept of Medieval Vassalage, the Lord-vassal relationship (oligarchy as you call it) and construct the map and bonuses from here.
- Each player is a Duke (so you need to place 8 duchies, even if that is a bit ahistorical) and they fight to gain control of the kingdom by defeating the other Dukes.
- In the map baronies = 1 territory, counties = 3 territories, duchies = 9 territories (2 counties plus duke's personal demesne). Plus the king's personal demesne (5 territories in your map) for a total of 9*8+5=79 territories.
- Suggested autodeploy bonuses: Count castle +1. Duke castle +2. King Castle +3
- Suggested continent bonuses: Each county +2. Each duchy +4. King's demesne +8
- Either each duke starts with the full duchy and has to fight the other 7 dukes, or he starts only with his demesne han has to fight not only the other dukes, but also the rebel counts which are neutral.
- King's demesne starts as neutral.

This map has big potential. I'll be happy to see it progress

[theBastard]

I agree with Industrial Helix. The idea is good, but you need to work on it. I am sure that with some effort and commitment, it can become an unique map. And above all, a funny one. Maps are supposed to be entertaining after all

yes, I can do historical but also funny maps and therefore all ideas and upgrading is welcome...

First, I know it's just a draft. But to me it seems difficult to see the map and get a good idea about wich territory link to wich territory. I would advise to make things a bit clearer. Like in the Age of Magic, New World and Feudal maps.

maybe I must reduce number of territories. is seems that I must enlarge font, so there will be less place to have everything clear

Second, to me it seems like you have thrown a lot of random bonuses and maluses with no particular reason. I say you have to build on a concept. Make a concept and then bonuses and maluses will come naturally as a result of that concept.

I agree there are many sorts of bonuses. but the concept is build on historical accuracy - as is possible with XML. one type of bonuses is about power of each Duke and second is about power of King´s privilege (Palatine title...)

Third, I'd rename "Oligarch" to "Duke". Each area is a duchy, each 3-territory area is a county and each territory is a barony. All Duchies form the Kingdom of Hungary

good point.

Fourth, why there are so many royal castles? I thougt there was only one kingdom.

yes, one Kingdom but each King had many strongholds around Kingdom. my idea is that no Duke can rule King´s domain (historic accuracy) therefore I add -1 to King´s regions. maybe here could be better killer neutral? the Royal castles are crossing points and break for player who marching over King´s domain.

So, here is my final suggestions (just something to start with, so you get an idea):
-Build upon the concept of Medieval Vassalage, the Lord-vassal relationship (oligarchy as you call it) and construct the map and bonuses from here.

I like your idea to build map on Feudalism - vassalage. just, Oligarchy is not "my name" for vassal relationship. it is about power/reign of rich, powerfull men (look at Russia after fall of communism for example). but vassal relationship is realy good point

- Each player is a Duke (so you need to place 8 duchies, even if that is a bit ahistorical) and they fight to gain control of the kingdom by defeating the other Dukes.

8 duchies are in map. and the neutal ones (Lesser nobles) represents the rest of them. all this is quite historical...

- In the map baronies = 1 territory, counties = 3 territories, duchies = 9 territories (2 counties plus duke's personal demesne). Plus the king's personal demesne (5 territories in your map) for a total of 9*8+5=79 territories.

I like this. just a little edit (for less place on the map) - barony = 2 territories (land + castle), county/duchie = 6 territories (including count´s personal demense). the nobility in Hungary was not so developed in these era. there were two levels of nobles (upper and lesser- in short).

I also want to have there "neutral" less powerfull nobles. it is historic accuracy that there were more as 8 oligarchs. and these amyous oligarchs were later ruled by strong oligarchs.

the Royal territories must be 6 minimum, I think.

so the number of territories could be: 6x8 = 48 (counties), 12 lesser nobles, 10 royal land (6 land territories + 4 castles). all = 70 territories.

- Suggested autodeploy bonuses: Count castle +1. Duke castle +2. King Castle +3
- Suggested continent bonuses: Each county +2. Each duchy +4. King's demesne +8

- autodeploy: town/barons castle +1, duke castle +3. for king´s castle I can not have so big bonus, they were never ruled by Oligarchs. so maybe only +1? or +3 as duke´s castle?

- continent bonuses: barony +1, county/duchie +3. King´s demense nothing. I preferd something similar to Palatine bonus as I have in map. when the map is build on Duchies and player is Duke - the King´s domain was not ruled by any Duke... or is this bad idea?

- Either each duke starts with the full duchy and has to fight the other 7 dukes, or he starts only with his demesne han has to fight not only the other dukes, but also the rebel counts which are neutral.

the starting points could be only Duke castles and towns/baron´s castles?

- King's demesne starts as neutral.

yes. also royal castles.

This map has big potential. I'll be happy to see it progress

thank you for ideas, interest, kind words and tips. i will work on it as I will be able

[Jatekos]

I work on new map from my favourite era - Medieval. this map is about Kingdom of Hungary and its problems during early XIV century. my country Slovakia was part of Kingdom of Hungary, so also threfore I did it

this draft was quickly finished, thanks to thenobodies that I did not work on it detailed more days .

I think it is a great idea to create a map of the medieval Hungary. I also like that you included castles on the map, I am sure it will make the gameplay even more interesting.

It seems that you used Hungarian names for the regions. Having a quick look at the map, it seems to me that some regions should be named differently. E.g. there is Szabolc, which should probably be Szabolcs. Megye in Hungarian means county, not sure why some regions contain this term while others not. Also, using Hungarian names may include special characters like é or á.

I think the region names selected are very important part of a historical map, and should be referred to correctly, if possible. This was my problem whith the 3rd Crusade map as well, which is a really nice map, but the creator mixed up things and used country, region and city names for territories. This can be easily overlooked if someone is not familiar with the geographical area, but for those who are it can look really weird.

I really appreciate your work, but I think that the map could be made more accurate in regards to the names of the regions. I would be happy to help, if needed.

[theBastard]

I think it is a great idea to create a map of the medieval Hungary. I also like that you included castles on the map, I am sure it will make the gameplay even more interesting.

thanks. all maps about which I think or on which I work are based on autodeploy (castles, towns).

It seems that you used Hungarian names for the regions. Having a quick look at the map, it seems to me that some regions should be named differently. E.g. there is Szabolc, which should probably be Szabolcs. Megye in Hungarian means county, not sure why some regions contain this term while others not. Also, using Hungarian names may include special characters like é or á.

you are Hungarian I assume. it was quick draft, the errors will be fixed later. about "megye" - it is used only in regions which have the same name as castle/town to diferentiate land and castle. I´m afraid that special characters are not in the sort of font which I use... will see if I find them there.

I think the region names selected are very important part of a historical map, and should be referred to correctly, if possible. This was my problem whith the 3rd Crusade map as well, which is a really nice map, but the creator mixed up things and used country, region and city names for territories. This can be easily overlooked if someone is not familiar with the geographical area, but for those who are it can look really weird.

yes, I try to do all historic accuracy as is possible. some things must be changed because XML limitations or gameplay balance.

I really appreciate your work, but I think that the map could be made more accurate in regards to the names of the regions. I would be happy to help, if needed.

names will be fixed to correct Hungarian spell. it is impossible to be 100% accurate. look how much regions was in Hungary in AD 1370, so it is about any compromise.

your help is very welcome, thanks.

Click image to enlarge.

[Jatekos]

Do you happen to have a larger image of the original map? I could not find one on the web that contains the same details in appropriate size so that all the names could be legible. The following is the best I found, will check if I can find the map I studied History from.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... h_cent.png

[theBastard]

here are some more maps.

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I must reduce number of territories. there will be 70 including castles.

[Jatekos]

I have found an original map, sorry for the delay.
If you want to decrease the number of territories, then I would suggest to combine the names a bit differently.

Currently the following 15 zones are indicated on the map:
Csák Máté
Kőszegi Miklós
Babonics István
Csák Ugrin
Borsa Kopasz
Aba Amádé
Kán László
Pok Miklós
+ 6 lesser nobles
+ king's authority

- How about using the oligarch's names as zones and using the names of the castles as region names? The main castles of the oligarchs are indicated in purple on the 2nd map (Kiskirályok uralmi területei a XIV. század elején) - we could use those names and add some more castle names. On the map I have just found towns, primacies, chamber's centers and mines are indicated as well (I can scan it if needed), we could use some other names if there are not enough castles in an area.
- I think it would be better to use other names than "lesser nobles" for zones (e.g. Ákos István per 2nd map).The area that is indicated on the 2nd map as "Kőszegiek" could be devided to Kőszegi Miklós and Kőszegi János, according the map that I have, if needed.
- There are other oligarchs on the 2nd map, which could be added to your map, and even part of Croatia was part of Hungary at that time (and the relevant oligarchs are indicated on the maps).
- It would also be possible to use overlapping zones e.g. Erdély, Szlavónia or Horvátország (see 3rd map - A tartományuraságok leverése) could be additional zones overlapping the zones that are named after the oligarchs.

[theBastard]

thanks for your ideas and help. I work on new version, some yours ideas are in, but some I could use. be patient now, I can first finish Baltic Crusades map...

about more oligarchs as Subics, at the first I thought about them, but I found more Hungary maps without Croatia. I will see if there will be enough place in map when I add also Croatia.

lesser nobles - was only name in quick draft, the relevant names will be fine.

yes, Koszegiek will be divided, but to Henrik and Miklos I think. look 3 map, in the upper right corner are names of oligarchs.

what exactly you mean with overlapping zones?

[Jatekos]

This is the map I have: http://kepfeltoltes.hu/101126/Scanned_at_2010.11.26._12-47_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg
It also shows the oligarchs in the top left corner (B).

overlapping zones - I meant double dipping, when territories show up in multiple continents.
http://chipv.freehostia.com/index.php?action=tag&tags%5B%5D=Double+Dipping
E.g. Territory A, B and C would belong to Kán László, and B, C, D, E, F would belong to Erdély (Transylvania). In other words, territory B and C could be part of 2 bonus zones.

Croatia - It is shown in all the 3 maps you are referring to. It is also shown on the above map I scanned. The Kingdom of Hungary consisted of Erdély, Szlavónia and Horvátország (see 1st map) as well , in addition to the central part of Hungary. This gave me the idea of the overlapping zones, because you could devide the kingdom based on the oligarchs and based on these main parts of the kingdom.

Take your time and finish the other map first, we don't have to hurry.

[theBastard]

I again work on map. and have some new ideas.

Jatekos, could you please translate what mean yellow squares on this map?

Click image to enlarge.

[Jatekos]

I again work on map. and have some new ideas.

Jatekos, could you please translate what mean yellow squares on this map?

It doesn't seem to be included in the legend.

[theBastard]

I again work on map. and have some new ideas.

Jatekos, could you please translate what mean yellow squares on this map?

It doesn't seem to be included in the legend.

it is. it is at 7th place and start with "Petenye"...

[Jatekos]

I again work on map. and have some new ideas.

Jatekos, could you please translate what mean yellow squares on this map?

It doesn't seem to be included in the legend.

it is. it is at 7th place and start with "Petenye"...

Petenye fia Péter és szövetségesei vára = Petenye's son Peter's and their allies' castle
They were around Zemplén county - you can find a couple of their castles on the map (below Halics, in the North).

If you mean the big yellow squares (e.g. Pest or Sopron), they probably mean something different, but it is not in the legend.

[theBastard]

thanks. have you any idea who were these Petenye and his son Peter?

could big yellow sqares show Royal castles? in the place where they are in Transylvania I found that there were mines under King´s control. just do not know how King can control them when L. Kan did not allow him go there

I hope new map will be soon here...

[Jatekos]

Apologies, it seems that "fia", which means "'s son" is actually part of Petenye fia Péter's name, and not a reference to Péter being a son of Petenye. There are a couple of other sources mentioning "Petenyefia Péter", too, although less.

"Petnye fia Péter" was Kán László's son according to:
http://tortenelemszoba.lapunk.hu/?modul ... om=1150500

a source in English mentioning him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebišov


The big yellow squares could be the King's castles, but I'm not sure. Where did you find the map? There could be more information on the website you found it, or part of the map is missing from the picture.

Right now I have to prepare for exams, but I can do more research a couple of weeks later.

[theBastard]

thanks, but forgot this. I did new map. good luck in school...

new map, gameplay, hope historic accuracy...
version 840x800

Click image to enlarge.

version 630x600

Click image to enlarge.

EDIT: another version with one more Royal land and Royals Castle.

Click image to enlarge.

[tokle]

I like the concept of the castle giving -1 decay if you don't hold the terit around it. To illustrate a siege, I expect. I doubt the XML would allow it though. Unless it's done without the auto-deploy part.

[theBastard]

I like the concept of the castle giving -1 decay if you don't hold the terit around it. To illustrate a siege, I expect. I doubt the XML would allow it though. Unless it's done without the auto-deploy part.

thanks. yes it is possible, I ask at forum. you can have 3 to deploy from start, but is possible when map has negative bonus to reduce yours 3 from start to 0...

[tokle]

I like the concept of the castle giving -1 decay if you don't hold the terit around it. To illustrate a siege, I expect. I doubt the XML would allow it though. Unless it's done without the auto-deploy part.

thanks. yes it is possible, I ask at forum. you can have 3 to deploy from start, but is possible when map has negative bonus to reduce yours 3 from start to 0...

I though it meant that the +3 autodeploy turned into a -1 autodeploy.
Maybe that needs to be written differently then. Still a good idea.

[theBastard]

I though it meant that the +3 autodeploy turned into a -1 autodeploy.
Maybe that needs to be written differently then. Still a good idea.

unfortunately this is not possible. there are not possibilities to change autodeploy. I pursue with this in XML forum and Mr.Benn said that this will be the first thing which will be changed.

so as now we have conditions for manualdeploy, maybe one time will be also conditions for autodeploy

[theBastard]

a little better version.

Click image to enlarge.

[Commander9]

All in all, looks like a great project with lots of potential, but there are a few things that do kind of bother me.

First of all, it's extremely monotonic and not easy pleasing, although I think this will be worked out Graphics forge. I also think that the castles and towns should look much different (perhaps even different colours) so you would be able to effortlessly notice each one of them separately as right now it takes some time to understand which is which.

Also, you might want to emphasize a bit stronger on the differences between King's, Oligarchs and ordinary lands - you can easily read them, but it would look better if the whole land would be of different colour, IMO.

Gameplay question: How many neutrals are there going to be? Is this going to be a conquest map (people start in castles and expand) or if this is going to be more so like the regular map which has bonuses, which are neutral? Your answer should determine a lot about the gameplay.