Montreal Metro Mayhem, need comments [idea]

[crazycoders]

Hi, i've got a new map suggestion, seeing how many train maps there are, i thought, why not make one of my region and here goes, another map for the Montreal area, enter the "Montreal Metropolitan Mayhem"

I don't think i can attach a picture to the post so here goes the url to the site i've hosted it on, please be gentle, it's my first map and 90% of it is a pre-made map from the AMT (Montreal Transportation Agency) it's good but it's a bit clutered but not as clutered as some other maps i've seen.

I've modded the map a little so there is more than just a subway war challenge, it's now a Bus/train/subway challenge map. The train and subway where already there, i added the bus lines to make the map more tactical or else it was just a pushing back contest and would have been quite boring.

Finaly, note that apart from the names, some original texts are in french such as Train de banlieu and will be converted to english in the final version.

http://allianceunisport.com/conquerclub/mmm.jpg

Thanks

[AndyDufresne]

Looks like the image may have come from http://www.metrodemontreal.com/index-e.html (at the bottom of the page, click "Map" under "Stations").

This map, though you altered it slightly, looks like it would have copyright problems, unless permission is gained from the owner, Matthew McLauchlin. So until you've got your own workable image, that is inherently yours and unique, or you've got permissions, I'm not sure much can be done.


--Andy

[seamusk]

Lets not create something out of this that doesn't exist. While that may be posted on his website, that looks like it is the official metro map and is probably public domain.

And let me add, I think that a montreal metro map would be really cool. Too bad we already have the other montreal map or you could integrate them into an NYC type map.

[ZeakCytho]

In any case, he should still create a new map image for CC, simply because there are legibility issues with the current one. The current one, which may or may not be in the public domain, is not graphically up to par with any current map on CC. I don't think any amount of minor editing will fix this. It needs a whole new start.

Now, since the idea isn't copyrighted, this is perfectly fine. It will just take some time and effort.

[WidowMakers]

Lets not create something out of this that doesn't exist. While that may be posted on his website, that looks like it is the official metro map and is probably public domain.

And let me add, I think that a Montreal metro map would be really cool. Too bad we already have the other montreal map or you could integrate them into an NYC type map.

Just because it is on a website does not mean it is public domain. With that logic anything you find on the internet is public domain.

There was a London Underground map a while back that was abandoned due to this issue of copyright. I tried to bring it back and even changed the layout around and altered the colors and the author still did not agree.

I agree with Andy. The copyright thing needs to be addressed.

WM

[seamusk]

It isn't public domain because its on a website. Its public domain because it is produced and published by a public agency. Obviously no one bothered to research this for real before making all of these copyright claims. In fact, this whole accusation of copyright started because the author of the map was wrongly attributed to a private individual and ruined a perfectly reasonable thread. No wonder so few come in here. Nothing but negative bull so far on what is a good idea.

[WidowMakers]

It isn't public domain because its on a website. Its public domain because it is produced and published by a public agency. Obviously no one bothered to research this for real before making all of these copyright claims. In fact, this whole accusation of copyright started because the author of the map was wrongly attributed to a private individual and ruined a perfectly reasonable thread. No wonder so few come in here. Nothing but negative bull so far on what is a good idea.

I am not trying to be difficult or anything, I have just run into these issues before. It is better the carto hear this stuff now than in 3 months when he is done and the original author says he can't use it. It has happened.

And public domain does not mean produce by a public agency, it means openly available to everyone and not subject to copyright protection.
I believe that copyrighted 2007 image, designed and drawn by Matthew McLauchlin, on a "unofficial website for fans of Montreal's metro system" might be copyrighted.

So your whole idea that this image does not belong to anyone or that it has been developed for a public agency is wrong. Before YOU accuse others, maybe you should do some research.

Now...lets assume the author gives permission. Here are some things that I would do after that.

1) Make the small map first. If you can fit everything in there, the large map will be OK.
2) Make sure the 88 army numbers fit inside the white circles. The image looks OK now but once you add 22 px diameter circles, the whole thing changes.
3) where two territory group cross, does that territory belong to both colors or just one? Example: Is JEAN-TALON blue or orange or both.
4) It is hard to tell where BERRI-UQAM is. It is yellow text but there is no yellow territory.
6) You bonuses seem off: Orange(+7) for 24 terts, Green(+5) for 26 terts, Yellow(+1) for 3 terts, Blue(+3) for 11 terts [This assumes that territories DO NOT BELONG TO MULTIPLE BONUSES]. I think these need to get reworked.
7) ZONE BONUSES: What is teh purpose of these. The legend says yellow and blue zones but your opacity is so low that it is really hard to tell. Plus they are outlined n red as well. The legend also says that +1 is autodeployed for holding a tert in those zones. I understand that. But then it says +2/+4 for holding all of each zone. Does that mean if you own all of yellow each tert in the yellow zone autodeployes +2. Because I don't think that is XML possible.
8) Some of your text is behind the graphics. That will need to be fixed for readability
9) What defines a bus or train line? The legend says +1 for each line. I only see one pink train line and 1 yellow bus line.

There are just a couple things to think about but FIRST, get the permission of the author first. That way you don't waste time on a map you can never make.
Keep it up you have good graphics skills. I enjoy seeing what you make now an din the future.

Hope this all works out.

WM

EDIT: Plus I would change the thread title so people know what you are working on and come to comment. I originally thought you wanted ideas not that you already had one. I would name the thread the name of the map.

[crazycoders]

Permission is no proble, i will completly redraw, my point was to see if my 4h of work so far led to something interresting but thanks for the concern guys its really appreciated.

I will obviously try to make things clearer and search in the complete zone deployment you might be more true on that than i am. The zones are underground passages and thus downtown is a real mess to defend, but if you hold it, then it shouldnt be too hard to defend with the bonuses.

i didn't notice the BUqam dot missing i'll add it.

The crossover stations are single, you own it or not, it's not like the usa train map where several users can share a station.

I will check the size of a 88 for fit but i need to know in pixels how wide it could be... can anyone tell me the font size used on the site. if not i'll go get it.

Bonuses are all linked to the number of crossovers already present not to the number of territs to own. In a map like this, the important point is to backup the crossovers, so as lon as you got them defended then you are safe. To supplement, if you hold a crossover station such as BUqam, you get a bonus 3 armmies per turn which may be too much i think, we'll see. All other stations such as bonaventure get +2 because it's on line 2 (orange) and it has two train lines starting. Get the point? In any case, what would you guys suggest in terms of bonuses.

I'll find a way to fit everything in a small map when i remake the whole map, i might change the letter casing, size, clearness of texts, etc. the texts that are behind graphics will be redone, this is the general idea, what you see that is overlayed is what i drew over

The train lines are in purple and bus lines are in yellow, i thought it would be simple but seems not, i'll add something to differentiate them correctly.

Thanks for your input.
Later

[crazycoders]

Okay, i've first of all simplified the map and redrawn it. There were definitely too many lines, texts and such so i simplified it.
The new map has 36 territories, the text on the small map is readable and the strategy has been revised.

The new map has only 6 start points and each correspond to a station at the end of a line except for the Snowdon station on the blue line which is a crossover on the orange line and the Berry-UQAM station which is the central cross station and end of line for yellow. All other territories start neutral with 3 units on each.

All end stations connect to at least another 2 end stations on the network. The two stations are the nearest on each side in a clockwork motion. Thus, Côte-Vertu links to Angrignon and MontMorency, MontMorency links to Côte-Vertu and Saint-Michel. And so on... This will force players not to push all their units forward, they have to defend their starting locations.

Bonuses are simple, 1 army / 3 territories, minimum 2 + 1 autodeployed on all end stations. (Note that Snowdon and Berry-UQAM are not end stations) Each line has a big bonus if you hold it all. Green has 6 bonus armies for 16 stations, Orange has 5 bonus armies for 13 stations, Blue line has 3 bonus armies for 9 stations and finaly Yellow line has only 1 bonus army because it is a short 3 station line. Apart from the line bonuses, Berry-UQAM being the center crossover station receives an automatic +1.

Crossover stations are not multiple ownership like some other maps do, it's one territory and one owner. So the players have to defend their crossover stations correctly if they don't want to lose their precious line bonusses.

I think that's all, tell me what you think.

[seamusk]

The map looks great! Some comments...

First I think that the bonus for orange should be greater than that for green. Green has more territories, but to hold Orange one has to defend 6 points of attack, whereas there are only 4 points to defend to hold green.

How realistic do you think it is that folks will hold some of those bonuses? green and orange for example. Maybe a better option would be a bonus per x territories on each line or something. Not sure if its necessary. Just a though.

Some kind of lines connecting the stations to show the bus lines would be cool. I really like that idea. If you ever feel the need to add territories you can add bus stops in.

And a clear unique identifying marker of which are end lines and which are starting stations.

Hope this helps. I think it is a great map. Will follow its progress for sure!

[AndyDufresne]

I remember one of the appeals of the old "London Underground" map, was that is relatively big and looked like it would provide for some open game play.

This map oddly just looks small, and not very inviting or interesting. You mentioned you took out some lines, but the addition of a few others may give this map some more appeal.


--Andy

[seamusk]

given that there is still a london underground map that could theoretically be quenched I don't think this one should be exactly like that one.

[AndyDufresne]

It was stopped due to copyright problems, and is not near Quenching. In any case, this map doesn't "make me want to play it."


--Andy

[crazycoders]

You don't want to play it meaning my map or the london map?

[seamusk]

You don't want to play it meaning my map or the london map?

I think he means your map. but he is only one player. I think that there are many more who like it. And london underground is still out there and potentially could be quenched at some point. But for some reason folks are having difficulty with realizing that the trademark is a core issue and they keep using it.