Battle of the Bulge - CLOSED

[jgordon1111]

I don't have a gut feeling about saf, and even though the quotes just presented took time to compile, I don't even feel they incriminate him that much. I went submarines-hunting too earlier in the game, but I think it's taking it too far to attack the replacements.

@pmc, deadline is May 7, yeah?

Fastposted by CLEVER that disagrees.

ya i think i pointed that out. but really what other cases on day one? this is the best case we have so far. i dont think i said it was an amazing case just the best one we have and with time coming to an end i needed to make a decision.

I'm not saying that there are better case per say. I'm just afraid that saf flips town. We know jg won't. (That's not saying that I won't hunt scum, but merely that I see no cases where I'm certain that the lynchee flips scum and that I can't present a case against anyone at this point. I bet at least two players needed this parenthesis.)

@ Ragian, Are you sure you wrote what you meant in the above post?

I am not a fan of lynching someone just to get a lynch, but / brought up some good points to have saf respond to. Time is now growing short cases have been intentionally derailed, Saf is good and if he can counter all of / points reasonably I will not put my vote on him.

And yes I am aware it will mean most likely me getting lynched, But I am still waiting to see what a few players say and do here.

You know most likely each of you who I am talking to, If you intend to sub til deadline I will wait about 8hrs prior and run my thoughts about you and do my best to get you put in the noose.

[safariguy5]

@ safari, challenge accepted!

Heya gimli, looking forward to some commentary.

dated april 28, following a post earlier on the page where gimli mentions he hasn't fully caught up yet.

I'm going to go with gimli. Promised reading and posting, hasn't done it.

unvote vote gimli

dated april 29 well, that was sure a loooong time gimli had taken to read up, huh?

I'm going to go with gimli. Promised reading and posting, hasn't done it.

unvote vote gimli

Personally, I'm going to give him until D2, because he has a LOT to read up on, so it can be frustrating catching up.

Frankly, it's not a particularly strong lead, but honestly, I do think we have enough information from Day 1, I'm not keen on forcing more claims, especially since I don't see particularly compelling cases out there.

sort of a "eh, I don't really care where this goes", a pretty clear departure of your earlier attitude

Speaking of which jgordon, didn't you suggest we pressure a submariner? Why are you still on this Doom case when we clearly have submariners to pressure? What's the point in suggesting a course of action if you're not going to follow up on it?

indeed, why don't we put our money where our mouth is, right? if we vote, we should really mean it.

As I've said before, bandwagon voting is necessary Day 1 because we aren't going to be able to generate great cases against someone unless someone does something really scummy. I've always operated under the assumption that if you give a reason, that shouldn't warrant bandwagonning on Day 1.

i'm not entirely sure what this post means without a bit of clarification on the second sentence, but you essentailly agree bandwaggons are nessarary and we shouldn't waste our moves, right? this is a bit contradictory to your willingness to settle for a no lynch

I'm not pushing crap. All I'm doing is making a case since pmc pushed me to do so. If you can't tell already, I'm simply throwing a name out there so nobody forgets about it later.

why did you need to be pushed to find scum?

What role you get should dictate how you play the game (to an extent).

indeed, for example, when I get a mafia role, I might not want to draw attention, I might become complacent, after all, what can I do? I don't want to draw suspicion, I know who scum is, I don't want to make them suspicious to town, who can I pressure?

Well I'll put my list then.

gimli
sg7
Sparticus

All because they haven't posted much. I'm not really seeing the case on chap or doom, I don't believe there's much merit on any cases currently, and jak and jgordon have made claims that can be reexamined in future days.

Right! inactives, they are always scummy, it's really such an easy answer.

I've already said multiple times that I think with the two claims we have, we risk outting another town power role, and I think we have enough leads that we have plenty to pursue on Day 2. Like I said, if they were 2 VT claims, then pursuing another case might make sense, but I do not believe we should get another case out there now, especially seeing how the existing cases lack concrete evidence in my opinion. Matters of opinion regarding the meaning or lack of meaning behind certain posts doesn't constitute strong enough evidence by their own to warrant voting by me.

I don't understand this logic, you say no cases are strong enough to pursue, but you say we have plenty of leads for day 2, what is going to happen by changing the title from 1 to 2? We shouldn't count on an easy follow the cop game, we can't magically change our current data, we have what we have. But you want to wait, just because we possibly can't protect everyone with the doc (allegedly) out, we aren't going to grow a new doc tomorrow, a claim is still a claim, an exposed power role is still an exposed power role, the only thing we gain with a no lynch is another night of war and more bodies to sort out.

on a side note, I came across a post you made early on that really makes me doubt you are mafia when I remembered it
viewtopic.php?f=213&t=165179&p=3704729&hilit=Battle+of+the+Bulge#p3704729
I don't see you as the kind of guy who would screw over your teammates by making them lose your role as mafia just to prove a point, I suppose the same could be said for a town power role, but it's obviously very stressful, and I really shouldn't WIFOM from it..

The gimli case is something I threw out there. He's been ok in the other games I've played with him, and he posted already, so that's really a moot point now.

Again, I've stated this before, but there is no magic number of claims on day 1 that make people believe they have enough information. I base the amount of "information" needed on the strength of the claims. So far, we have 1 survivor claim and 1 doc claim. So that a third party role and 1 doctor claim. Since we outed the doctor, we can expect that he will reveal his night actions every night, which automatically gives us more information for Day 2. Also, it's possible that Doom or chap or any of the other cases brought up today gets NKed on Night 1. That may alter our perception of what they said here. But I know we're guaranteed Night actions from jak, and the risk/reward analysis of forcing another claim right now is too high for me to go after another person. Especially since the cases on chap and doom I wasn't particularly keen on. What if we force another claim and they claim cop or watcher or something important? Do we have enough unclaimed protective roles to cover everybody? This is of course not factoring in a possible mafia roleblocker who can negate jak's action and kill really anyone they want.

[jak111]

Now my question for Saf. Who do you think we should go after? No more stalling, two days is not enough to begin screwing around more.

[pmchugh]

Now my question for Saf. Who do you think we should go after? No more stalling, two days is not enough to begin screwing around more.

I think he is promoting a no lynch? What about jgordon saf?

[jgordon1111]

vote count ghost

[chapcrap]

Now my question for Saf. Who do you think we should go after? No more stalling, two days is not enough to begin screwing around more.

I think he is promoting a no lynch? What about jgordon saf?

I think a no lynch is a bad option.

[/]

@mod, could we please have a mass prod with the next vc?

@safari, what information can possibly be gained from a doc action that helps us find scum?

[jgordon1111]

Now my question for Saf. Who do you think we should go after? No more stalling, two days is not enough to begin screwing around more.

I think he is promoting a no lynch? What about jgordon saf?

I think a no lynch is a bad option.

Good post chap,considering that time is now short and the odds are I will be the one lynched.

Do tell, what exactly do you yourself gain from me being lynched.

1. I gave up my role to try and cover the doc.

2. I have already stated my preference for town to win(and its not cheating etc.)every survivor does it every game, I just did it at the beginning. lylo situation may occur at possibly D5,but mafia knows my intentions do you really think they will even attempt a deal? LOL if they do.

3. despite what you have said several times I think I have contributed alot more so far than you have.

4.Me not being lynched will give town a better shot at winning. I will actually scum hunt instead of BW'ing just to say I participated.

5. Every single chance you have gotten,your post's either specifically or casually refer to me being lynched. Tell me why I am a danger to you?

6. You submarine basically then pop up occassionally and constantly push for a lynch,to the point you have even derailed at least one case to try again.

7. You are most likely scum,but what I believe is not enough to pin you hard,its the only reason my vote is not on you,because unlike you when I am not sure I dont go for it and weaken the chances of town to win.

8. But I see you made it before we got to close to the deadline.

9. Ah to hell with it I am 95% sure your scum. Due to your gameplay so far Vote chap

[jgordon1111]

Just in case Unvote vote chap just so there is no mistake about my vote here.

I told you that you were getting close to that noose and that last pop up post to go ahead and vote no lynch without giving another possible case,was just enough for me to hit 95% on you.

and sorry for the second post all,just wanted this one seperate for my own reasons

[Leehar]

Remind me why're you defending yourself so vigorously again jg? :s

[everywhere116]

unvote vote saf for emphasis. If we don't cast votes now today will end in a no lunch.

But I like lunch. It's so delicious.

@ lead guitarist for the Guns n' Roses: Very convincing. I think that it is possible that saf was trying to go for a no lynch for whatever reason. He says he doesn't want to pressure anyone else (besides the inactives) and yet he has not voted for or given verbal support to lynch anyone who has been pressured. Vote saf

@ gordon. I'm confused. Your post two posts above this one disparages him for not supporting a no lynch, and then your next post disparages him for voting no lynch, which never happened.

[jgordon1111]

Remind me why're you defending yourself so vigorously again jg? :s

Because I am a survivor and chap references lynching me everytime he posts,therefore everytime he even hints at lynching me I am going to defend myself as hard as I can,and try to get some of you to see that he is yes giving off scumtells. So yes we are coming up on the deadline and after his last post I am 95% sure he is scum,so I am now making the vote I will stand with.

[DoomYoshi]

unvote vote saf for emphasis. If we don't cast votes now today will end in a no lunch.

But I like lunch. It's so delicious.

@ lead guitarist for the Guns n' Roses: Very convincing. I think that it is possible that saf was trying to go for a no lynch for whatever reason. He says he doesn't want to pressure anyone else (besides the inactives) and yet he has not voted for or given verbal support to lynch anyone who has been pressured. Vote saf

@ gordon. I'm confused. Your post two posts above this one disparages him for not supporting a no lynch, and then your next post disparages him for voting no lynch, which never happened.

You should just stop reading his posts. It is a waste of time.

Vote saf

Let's get a real claim today finally. The two we got before we're bs.

[jgordon1111]

unvote vote saf for emphasis. If we don't cast votes now today will end in a no lunch.

But I like lunch. It's so delicious.

@ lead guitarist for the Guns n' Roses: Very convincing. I think that it is possible that saf was trying to go for a no lynch for whatever reason. He says he doesn't want to pressure anyone else (besides the inactives) and yet he has not voted for or given verbal support to lynch anyone who has been pressured. Vote saf

@ gordon. I'm confused. Your post two posts above this one disparages him for not supporting a no lynch, and then your next post disparages him for voting no lynch, which never happened.

Reread what you are talking about,you are correct it doesnt say what I meant correctly.

And you already know he didnt vote for a no lynch. It sounds that way when I read it again.

what I meant was all chap did was pop in again long enough to disagree with the no lynch,but not say anything else,did not put forth another case. just disagreed with the no lynch.

therefore as a usual scum tell most mafia have a tendency to play that way. just say enough to make sure someone gets lynched without committing to the game and bring everyones eyes on them.

The only commitment chap has had other than pushing for my lynch was a halfhearted push on NG1. that he dropped when a bandwagon wouldnt form.

no commitment prior and none after,scum tell.

[safariguy5]

Y'know, it's funny gauging everyone's reaction given the claims we have out there. How many times have we gotten a few town claims Day 1 and everyone eventually settles for the no lynch? But yet, the first instance we see of a claimed third party survivor, people immediately believe that's a great option. Honestly, many people have said that "if all else fails, let's lynch jgordon" several times (me included). I fail to see how the evidence brought against me is compelling enough that it's automatically a better option than jgordon. Not saying we should lynch jgordon, but I honestly think this case has even less justification than the case on jak or jgordon.

The reason I'm not voting for jgordon is the same reason why people are drawing flak for questioning jak's claim. If you want to rehash a case from earlier on in the day, does that really get us any new information? Also, it's not like jg is under any vote pressure now, so I doubt me voting him would result in a lynch.

[/]

Since we outed the doctor, we can expect that he will reveal his night actions every night, which automatically gives us more information for Day 2.

safari, what information can possibly be gained from a doc action that helps us find scum?

Requoted for emphasis

[safariguy5]

Since we outed the doctor, we can expect that he will reveal his night actions every night, which automatically gives us more information for Day 2.

safari, what information can possibly be gained from a doc action that helps us find scum?

Requoted for emphasis

It's a good idea to see who the claimed doc protected. Also, if we have a watcher/tracker, they know a good target to watch/track to either try to catch scum or check the doc claim. The night action that the doc made potentially could also save the kill, giving us a confirmed townie.

[chapcrap]

Now my question for Saf. Who do you think we should go after? No more stalling, two days is not enough to begin screwing around more.

I think he is promoting a no lynch? What about jgordon saf?

I think a no lynch is a bad option.

Good post chap,considering that time is now short and the odds are I will be the one lynched.

Do tell, what exactly do you yourself gain from me being lynched.

1. I gave up my role to try and cover the doc.

2. I have already stated my preference for town to win(and its not cheating etc.)every survivor does it every game, I just did it at the beginning. lylo situation may occur at possibly D5,but mafia knows my intentions do you really think they will even attempt a deal? LOL if they do.

3. despite what you have said several times I think I have contributed alot more so far than you have.

4.Me not being lynched will give town a better shot at winning. I will actually scum hunt instead of BW'ing just to say I participated.

5. Every single chance you have gotten,your post's either specifically or casually refer to me being lynched. Tell me why I am a danger to you?

6. You submarine basically then pop up occassionally and constantly push for a lynch,to the point you have even derailed at least one case to try again.

7. You are most likely scum,but what I believe is not enough to pin you hard,its the only reason my vote is not on you,because unlike you when I am not sure I dont go for it and weaken the chances of town to win.

8. But I see you made it before we got to close to the deadline.

9. Ah to hell with it I am 95% sure your scum. Due to your gameplay so far Vote chap

1. You claiming in no way covered the doc. I don't know why you think that.
2. You may prefer town to win at this point, but if you actually are a third party survivor, you can easily switch and say that you want mafia to win later and there is nothing town can do at that point about you because we'll need to actually find scum at that point.
3. Ok.
4. So, us saving a third party and taking a ~30% chance at lynching scum and most likely getting town instead would help town? Unlikely.
5. Well, that's false and a blatant lie. The post you quoted of mine made no reference to you in any way. It's already been explained why taking out a third party survivor is the best option.
6. How have I constantly submarined? I have been here, posting almost every day. As already explained, I had a child at the beginning of this game, so obviously I won't be online double posting all the time. Sorry for that. What cases have I derailed? Besides the absurd case that pmc brought on me? It seems more like you are derailing a case that is trying to be made on saf to attack me again for no reason.
7. You'd like to pin me hard, wouldn't you?
8. I made what?
9. I'm not sure you understand how percentages work?

[jgordon1111]

Now my question for Saf. Who do you think we should go after? No more stalling, two days is not enough to begin screwing around more.

I think he is promoting a no lynch? What about jgordon saf?

I think a no lynch is a bad option.

Good post chap,considering that time is now short and the odds are I will be the one lynched.

Do tell, what exactly do you yourself gain from me being lynched.

1. I gave up my role to try and cover the doc.

2. I have already stated my preference for town to win(and its not cheating etc.)every survivor does it every game, I just did it at the beginning. lylo situation may occur at possibly D5,but mafia knows my intentions do you really think they will even attempt a deal? LOL if they do.

3. despite what you have said several times I think I have contributed alot more so far than you have.

4.Me not being lynched will give town a better shot at winning. I will actually scum hunt instead of BW'ing just to say I participated.

5. Every single chance you have gotten,your post's either specifically or casually refer to me being lynched. Tell me why I am a danger to you?

6. You submarine basically then pop up occassionally and constantly push for a lynch,to the point you have even derailed at least one case to try again.

7. You are most likely scum,but what I believe is not enough to pin you hard,its the only reason my vote is not on you,because unlike you when I am not sure I dont go for it and weaken the chances of town to win.

8. But I see you made it before we got to close to the deadline.

9. Ah to hell with it I am 95% sure your scum. Due to your gameplay so far Vote chap

1. You claiming in no way covered the doc. I don't know why you think that.
2. You may prefer town to win at this point, but if you actually are a third party survivor, you can easily switch and say that you want mafia to win later and there is nothing town can do at that point about you because we'll need to actually find scum at that point.
3. Ok.
4. So, us saving a third party and taking a ~30% chance at lynching scum and most likely getting town instead would help town? Unlikely.
5. Well, that's false and a blatant lie. The post you quoted of mine made no reference to you in any way. It's already been explained why taking out a third party survivor is the best option.
6. How have I constantly submarined? I have been here, posting almost every day. As already explained, I had a child at the beginning of this game, so obviously I won't be online double posting all the time. Sorry for that. What cases have I derailed? Besides the absurd case that pmc brought on me? It seems more like you are derailing a case that is trying to be made on saf to attack me again for no reason.
7. You'd like to pin me hard, wouldn't you?
8. I made what?
9. I'm not sure you understand how percentages work?

I understand you may be tired with the new family member chap, but your counter points,some of them dont exactly makes sense and some of them are to say the least odd.

Not a very good rebuttal at all my vote stays with you then.

1. I claimed because I saw what jak had already been saying in his posts. I guess you and some others didnt.

2. Do you really think mafia will try to make a deal with me. LOL at you if you believe that.

3. well this one threw me as odd,you concede I have contributed more than you have, yet I am the better choice for a lynch. LOL the irony of it.

4. 30% why only 30% chap what do you know about mafias numbers to throw that out as certain as you did.

5. nope no lie. you disagree with a no lynch situation you said it. and as you have been pushing the agenda of lynching 3rd party with no other cases on the table for certain at the time. you inferred one more time lynching me. And lynching 3rd party is not always the best option D1,D2,D3,or D4. there pushing that propaganda is a lie.

6. you are not putting anything of relevance forward except lynch me.

7. yes I would

8. the deadline chap. it means time limit.experation of the clock.etc.

9.yes I know how percentages work chap. I am 95% sure you are scum. that is 5% less than 100% for those that use math instead of whatever you are using. now at 96% because of your weak rebuttal.

[ghostly447]

Guys, I will try to get this VC tomorrow morning or afternoon. I am too tired to get through the last pages of this game, so sorry guys.

I may extend the deadline 24 hours before the set time if requested since I havent been around the last 46 to give a VC for you guys. Sorry, I know its an inconvenience.

Adam

[jgordon1111]

Guys, I will try to get this VC tomorrow morning or afternoon. I am too tired to get through the last pages of this game, so sorry guys.

I may extend the deadline 24 hours before the set time if requested since I havent been around the last 46 to give a VC for you guys. Sorry, I know its an inconvenience.

Adam

Ghost do you need a time extension?

[chapcrap]

@jg

1. I saw the soft claim of doc. I said as much 40 pages ago. I just think you claimed for no reason at all. And jak is the one who kept pointing to his own soft claim anyway.
2. Yes, mafia will try to make a deal with anyone if they can win.
3. As far as me conceding you contributing more, I didn't. I just don't feel like arguing stupid things.
4. If you don't think the mafia are ~30%, what percentage of mafia do you think are in the game. Most have already said 4 or 5. That is 22.2-27.8%. I rounded up. Not sure why you think there would be more.
5. Yes, I do disagree with a no lynch. That doesn't make me a liar. Lynching third party is the best option with the percentages that I laid out in number 5. I thought you wanted to be lynched anyway. Remember when you voted yourself?
6. Well, you ignored the fact that I said you were derailing the saf case for me. Well done, maybe if you ignore actual facts, they'll go away.
7. Just for the record: You, jgordon1111, would like to pin me, chapcrap, hard? You want to pin me hard?
8. I'm not sure what this number is for. What point were you trying to make?
9. Well, if you're 96% sure, then why don't I just get lynched then? I mean, as soon as I make a few more posts, you'll be to 100% at this rate!!

Also, I never claimed to be tired because of my newborn. I claimed to not have enough time to make unnecessary and posts and double post for no reason.

[jgordon1111]

@jg

1. I saw the soft claim of doc. I said as much 40 pages ago. I just think you claimed for no reason at all. And jak is the one who kept pointing to his own soft claim anyway.
2. Yes, mafia will try to make a deal with anyone if they can win.
3. As far as me conceding you contributing more, I didn't. I just don't feel like arguing stupid things.
4. If you don't think the mafia are ~30%, what percentage of mafia do you think are in the game. Most have already said 4 or 5. That is 22.2-27.8%. I rounded up. Not sure why you think there would be more.
5. Yes, I do disagree with a no lynch. That doesn't make me a liar. Lynching third party is the best option with the percentages that I laid out in number 5. I thought you wanted to be lynched anyway. Remember when you voted yourself?
6. Well, you ignored the fact that I said you were derailing the saf case for me. Well done, maybe if you ignore actual facts, they'll go away.
7. Just for the record: You, jgordon1111, would like to pin me, chapcrap, hard? You want to pin me hard?
8. I'm not sure what this number is for. What point were you trying to make?
9. Well, if you're 96% sure, then why don't I just get lynched then? I mean, as soon as I make a few more posts, you'll be to 100% at this rate!!

Also, I never claimed to be tired because of my newborn. I claimed to not have enough time to make unnecessary and posts and double post for no reason.

OMG taking a good portion of what I said and twisting it is all you can come with as a defense. i.e., number seven whats up with that,its a game chap and coming with that is pretty low especially beings you were on that ship that jumped me for the way I was playing.

So for the record I do wish I had the 100% evidence to pin you hard as scum.

[safariguy5]

Ugh, all I'm really seeing in this exchange is chap wanting to lynch jgordon and jgordon wanting to lynch chap. As jg himself says, there's no single damning piece of evidence here. I'd say a lot of the points are speculative too (endgame behavior, number of scum players).

That said, it also would split the vote for the final case before deadline. I know jgordon and chap have been on each other for awhile, so I can't really blame either of them for it I suppose.

[pmchugh]

At this point the day is becoming ridiculous. We couldn't agree on anything. I think saf and chap are both decent enough people to pursue, but at the rate this is moving then we will end up lynching jgordon which is still better than a no lynch.

Ghostly I know this is your first game and all but it would be nice to have a higher number of vote counts than mass prods..