shieldgenerator7 wrote:well, thanks for defending me. I just didn't know anything, and didn't want to make a decision based on a empty set knowledge base. After night, into tomorrow, I'll know a little more than today, so then I'll be ready with voting power. Thanks for teaching me basic strategy anyway.
Hmm, is he saying what I think he's saying. This is very subtle for his first time playing. Impressive.
nagerous wrote:shieldgenerator7 wrote:well, thanks for defending me. I just didn't know anything, and didn't want to make a decision based on a empty set knowledge base. After night, into tomorrow, I'll know a little more than today, so then I'll be ready with voting power. Thanks for teaching me basic strategy anyway.
The problem with that is the advocation of a nobody move, nobody get hurt thesis, basically it doesn't wash with mafia games as illustrated by safari the mafia have the kill whilst the town during the day at least initially have only the power to vote. Later these voting records can be analysed and ties can be developed between certain people who are seen as noticeable having defended each other etc. Seeing as you have explained yourself somewhat I am going to
unvote.
Hmm, this post really caught my attention.
Nag was pretty hard on shield very early on, and shield really didn't provide much of a defense. Actually, it was Fir and edoc who defended shield- whilst shield just said thank you for defending me and admitted that he was new to mafia.
This doesnt seem like the type of thing that would normally sway nag. I see this more as Nag realized that his thoughts and voting rational were unpopular amongst the town, so he quickly backtracked. And to try to ammend things- he says that he would unvote because shield explained himself well. Shield barely mentioned an explanation. Something just seems odd to me about how aggressive Nag was on him initially- but then immediately backed off with a loose excuse.
This makes me want to
FOS Nagspiesr wrote:nagerous wrote:No it isn't. It is much more common that those that are particularly over defensive and vote no lynch come out of scum. You should know this from gaming history. Do you not remember spiesr? Scum noobs vote no lynch because they do not quite know what they are doing and don't want one of their scum buddies to die. Town noobs don't vote no lynch because they ultimately see the logic in catching scum and lynching mafia. This is textbook stuff fircoal.
I stand by my defense that I voted no lynch in that game becuase in the game I had played prior the town had voted no lynch on day 1 and I assumed that it was common practice.
Anyhow, we are presented with the common dilemma when dealing with new players. How do we determine if the mistakes that they make are becuase they are new players or because they are new scum? Personally I don't have a good answer for this one. We just have to rely on our own judgment whether to ignore their scum tells or to crack down on a player who may not know any better. I will hold off casting any vote on the matter for the moment as I don't see enough to convict shieldgenerator at this point, and nagerous' actions don't seem out of character for him or anything.
shieldgenerator7 wrote:well, thanks for defending me. I just didn't know anything, and didn't want to make a decision based on a empty set knowledge base. After night, into tomorrow, I'll know a little more than today, so then I'll be ready with voting power. Thanks for teaching me basic strategy anyway.
Do you mean "tonight and tomorrow" as in real life days or in game days? As others are explaining waiting until Day 2 to start seriously looking for scum is generally frowned upon. Even if we end up lynching a townie today, that is just how the game moves forward. If we don't make real discussion today then we start tomorrow in almost the same point, just with a night of actions gone by. Unless a cop gets a guilty result and decides to reveal himself day 2 starts off with discussion relating to that of the previous day. It is true that day 1 tends to start off slowly with people just making joke votes as we have nothing to go off of. However, eventually something happens. Usually someone says something that someone else finds scummy. An argument may erupt and players pick sides. They go after the accuser for not having a good reason to accuse the other person, or they go after the accused for being scummy. Then you can discuss who supported who and why, or who is hiding and avoiding attention, or whatever. It probably isn't the ideal way of doing things, but the game has to get going someway.
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:I don't think I'll vote for him at this point, maybe a cop can investigate, but I'm watching for further slip-ups.
You can have an FOS from me. It seems to me that you are slyly trying to direct the cop. In my opinion doing so at this point in the game is somewhat scummy. Who benefits from directing the cop? I would say the scum. If they can convince the cop to target someone who is not one of them then that is great for them as then they won't be uncovered that night. Also, in games that contain framers, having some sort of an idea where the cop will visit makes that job a lot easier...
QFT from Spiers. He makes a very good point about Tails. I think its true that scum are more likely to try to direct the cop early in the game, than town.
FOS Tailsnagerous wrote:Commander9 wrote:nagerous wrote:My vote was also joking in nature with the implication you might be a multi on the Conquer Club. However, with this reaction I am going to keep my vote on you.. that no lynch and over-reaction was a major scum-tell.
Sorry to be so harsh but I think you've immediately been over-defensive and the switch to a no lynch is a classic scum beginner's mistake.
Nag... that's his 1st game. I've got to agree with Edoc and Fir here - we can explain to him what wrong he has done, but while he could indeed be scum, most of the 1st timers make the same mistakes and most of them usually are town. This doesn't warrant a vote on you yet, but if nothing better than this will come up, I'll remember this.
I honestly don't understand why you would be this aggressive against him.
I don't think my post was aggressive, he needed to know that kind of action was a major scum tell. I am not going to go easy on someone just because they are new to the game, this is an aggressive game in its nature and someone who is over-defensive on the offset and then votes a no lynch will receive my vote.
Hmm, I disagree with this Naggy. For instance, I remember you went quite easy on me in the Quentin game- defending me and saying it was my first game and such- before you reluctantly joined the bandwagon. I think you are just posting this for convenience atm. This is not always your approach, from what I've seen. Well at least- in the few games we've had together.
sheepofdumb wrote:shieldgenerator7 wrote:well, thanks for defending me. I just didn't know anything, and didn't want to make a decision based on a empty set knowledge base. After night, into tomorrow, I'll know a little more than today, so then I'll be ready with voting power. Thanks for teaching me basic strategy anyway.
One of the biggest problems with internet mafia is the lack of body language. You will most likely be in the dark for most of the game. Unless you are in some group or a cop you will have no idea who anyone else is until they are dead. Trying to guess roles is like playing minesweeper with no big open patches and unreliable numbers. Lynching is a risky but necessary business for the town. Most of these guys have been playing for years and are rather adept at picking out scum tells. There should be a few resources outlining the do's and don't for newbies. It's been a few years so I don't know any off the top of my head and I don't have time right now to hunt any down. I know there's a website that explains the most common roles.
@Streaker: The way I see it we have three good leads. Nag for going after an easy noob lynch and Fircoal going after nag for the aggressiveness as a scum tell. Finally we have shield giving off noob scum tells. I want to see a little bit more but if you ask me there are three days worth of lynches the town has lined up. Fircoal doesn't need to inform Nag of noob/bad scum tactics. Nag knows the textbook noob mistakes and shield followed them to the letter. Then there's edocsil but I'm late for class as it is.
Safariguy5 has not shown me that he is a proponent of love and peace. My vote on him stands.
safariguy5 wrote:edocsil wrote:safariguy5 wrote:Lol, that website would be [url]mafiascum.net[/url]. The way I see it, nag jumping on shield is expected and chu defending the noob is also expected. I didn't expect edoc to be the first to rush to defend the noob, that seemed like an overreaction. And really, we've lynched people like shield for less on day 1.
unvote vote edocsil
What info would lynching the rookie get us? Shit, maybe we would get lucky and he is scum, but you all know the odds of him being scum are no more likely then any other person picked at random. I dislike how Nag looks to waste the entire day chasing down a rookie who simply didn't know better, rather then spend the valuable time hunting. IMO anyone who wants to waste a day should be hung from the closest tree.
But it's not a wasted day. A wasted day is a day with a no lynch. Even pressuring and forcing a claim is better than just letting the guy off the hook.
That is a good point saf- but pressuring and forcing claims tends to work out better for the mafia rather than the town.
That is so true, and is totally what tripped me up in the Quentin game. It can be hard to get used to online mafia, when you are used to playing it in real life. I have never been skilled at argumentation - so it is easier to rely on body language and speech patterns in real life mafia.
On another note- I'm not really understanding the vote on safari, as most of your post is centered around streaker. Are you saying that safari seems to me playing the peacemaker role too much, so therefore you think he is scum? You didn't really say much about him.
sheepofdumb wrote:edocsil wrote:Heh, basically just committed the big 3 when i come to mafia mistakes. The only thing left is editing a post, just don't do it, we will likely try to hang you. Find something you think is scummy and vote on it, you will likely be wrong as the odds are against you, but it is how you learn to play.
safariguy5 wrote:Still, this means that you're still going with the no lynch vote. We explained why voting no lynch is inadvisable if you're town and you're already drawing heat for it. Bottom line, everyone needs to take a stand, even if nobody else seems to agree with you on it. I know you're new at this, but the whole point in mafia online is to build a case on someone. And especially day 1 where there isn't any information, people have definitely been lynched over what you've posted so far. You can't just go to night and let mafia get a free kill, especially if they hit someone like the doctor or cop. And don't expect cops to come running to post who they got as innocent right away as it sets a bullseye on their back for mafia. Rely on observation and logic to spot scum, don't just sit and passively wait for someone to accuse someone else.
safariguy5 wrote:My point here is that there's a difference between making a scummy move and then rectifying it and making a scummy move and sticking with it. Pleading ignorance is not an excuse to not vote for someone. What happens tomorrow if nobody comes forward with any information? Do we no lynch again and let the scum pick off everyone one at a time? What happens if the scum kill the cop tonight and we no lynched? Do we just sit there and wait for the scum to kill everyone? You have to take risks, put your neck out and accuse someone for something you picked up. If everyone just passively waited for night, then mafia would roll over us in short order.
edocsil wrote:Generally then you do not place a vote, you simply type Unvote (Mod, this doesn't count, I still wish my Vote Nag to be counted) A vote for a no lynch is actually fairly serious and should never be done without solid reason and logic.
safariguy5 wrote:But it's not a wasted day. A wasted day is a day with a no lynch. Even pressuring and forcing a claim is better than just letting the guy off the hook.
You should really read the above. They hold some important information.
Commander9 wrote:shieldgenerator7 wrote:Thanks again for coming to my rescue. Don't worry, I've learned my lesson. I won't do this again tomorrow (day 2), so you won't have to give me special newbie treatment.
Well, what about starting to play and learn today?
nagerous wrote:My vote was also joking in nature with the implication you might be a multi on the Conquer Club. However, with this reaction I am going to keep my vote on you.. that no lynch and over-reaction was a major scum-tell.
Sorry to be so harsh but I think you've immediately been over-defensive and the switch to a no lynch is a classic scum beginner's mistake.
Commander9 wrote:Now, this last part was something different. Saf, I wasn't suggesting no lynch - I'd rather wanted to pressure Nag (and still do), but if shield continues on this path, he will not last long.
edocsil wrote:Certainly not. one more slip up on his part and I'm going to do a 180.
safariguy5 wrote:And really, we've lynched people like shield for less on day 1.
shieldgenerator7 wrote:I really want to keep my no lynch vote, but you make it sound as if I'm skating on thin ice.
Oh no, you're not skating on thin ice at all. I think your choices are totally logical and not classic scum movements. I also think you have learned your lesson. I think you are going to be alive to the end of the game. I'm even sure you are going to win.
You've ignored the advice of the players here and refuse to change from your scummy stance even though you've been told several times why that is a bad idea. Hopefully you will use the top part of this post as a reference on some no-no's in your next game. The rest of this post is a lesson in research. Pulling together all these quotes helps build a case for or against someone. I could do a lot better putting together this post (and therefore my argument) together but I think this will do.
Unvote vote ShieldAlso,
FOS Violet. I haven't seen a single post from you since you confirmed.
I agree with this. Now shield, I actually admire your persistence, and wanting to keep with your original stance now matter what. Reminds me of myself in some ways
However- especially if you are a true town motivated player- it may be best to retract for the best interest of the town. I've had to learn that the hard way in some games.
For instance, you holding on to the no lynch vote, despite all the advice, support and helpfulness you've received from the players in this game, is going to do nothing but gain you more votes. Once you have enough votes- which I believe you do now- you are going to have to claim. And rather or not people like your claim- you will be lynched, or people will unvote. This situation is not always ideal- as it gives the mafia too much information. While it can be useful later- to try to analyze vote patterns and come up with more leads- it is usually best to be avoided if possible.
nagerous wrote:Right a few thoughts:
1) Shieldgenerator is trolling the forums, bumping old threads and whatnot - I wouldn't be surprised if he is trolling this game too. I don't think he should be lynched because of this behaviour now, I'd rather see him replaced with someone a bit more competent and someone who is more willing to play the game properly
2) The way some people are now doing 180 degrees on the guy, reaks of hypocrisy - there really is a gang bandwagon nature going on developing accross the board in all the games. That stuff on nostalgia day 1 really left a sour taste in my mouth, if you don't like the way I play get over it OK. Esocsil - you FOS me for voting the guy who voted no lynch but now you are doing the same. All the idiot/troll is doing is sticking to his guns, almost like we wants to be lynched and I doubt pancake would put a jester in this game. The first time he voted no lynch and over defensive nature was ultra scummy, it completely deserved my vote. However, now he is playing like he is knowing full well the implications that it will get him lynched makes no sense. This guy WANTS to be lynched and I will have no part in this new bandwagon.
3) Sheepofdumb - I take exception to this statement "I want to see a little bit more but if you ask me there are three days worth of lynches the town has lined up." I didn't like the way he seems to be planning three lynches for the town , this early in the game, attempting to take control just from a few comments made at the beginning. You seem to suggest that shields first post was scummy and worth a lynch, yet my response to his scuminess was scummy and worth a lynch and then fircoals response to my scuminess was also scummy in turn and worth a lynch. Make up your mind!
Well, his eagerness to post in every thread available does remind me of herk
but I think to really call him a troll at this point is premature.
I see him as an eager player who is trying and really does want to play mafia- so i think we should give him a chance- before pouring out undue suspicion on him.
I just remember what happened during my San Francisco game- involving two players who turned out to be innocent- and it really put a damper in things for a few pages. Would like to avoid something like that this game- if possible. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt.
) --- it's got SHIELDS!
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