Pokemon Endgame: Mafia Victory + jonty

[DoomYoshi]

Vote Count:

shieldgenerator7 (1) - freezie
lalaland (7) - shieldgenerator7, Victor Sullivan, Rodion, kratos644, Mr. Squirrel, Haggis McMutton, nagerous L-3
shaggydan (1) - Streaker
kratos644 (1) - ???
Mr. Squirrel (1) - lalaland

With 18 alive it takes 10 to lynch

[jimfinn]

I do still find the MafiaAlliance thing suspicious as well, and I'm going to vote:LALA to push for a claim. Will be out of town from tomorrow morning til Sunday or Monday

[lalaland]

I'm a wild doublevoting pokemon. Hank asked about the doublevoter to throw suspicion off himself so he wouldn't become a target.

To prove this, I will use my secret vote on Mr Squirrel, who I voted above.

[lalaland]

I'm a wild doublevoting pokemon. Hank asked about the doublevoter to throw suspicion off himself so he wouldn't become a target.

To prove this, I will use my secret vote on Mr Squirrel, who I voted above.

EBWOP: I'm Dodrio.

[lalaland]

I do still find the MafiaAlliance thing suspicious as well, and I'm going to vote:LALA to push for a claim. Will be out of town from tomorrow morning til Sunday or Monday

Also, "mafia alliance" while suspicious, can still be readily found on the web, even in conjunction to mafia forum games, as seen above.

[lalaland]

and one more thing: mafia alliances ARE mentioned on mafiascum, at this page: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Barry_Allen where it is mentioned that "Barry Allen" (a mod on mafiascum?) mentions being part of the "Mafia Alliance" forum as early as 6 months ago

Since then I've played a lot of Mafia rounds on AAOM (later known as Saccharyne Park Mafia), and on a group of related sites called the Mafia Alliance (AAOM/SP, VGM, and Court Records Mafia). The Mafia Alliance sites have now merged into vendetta-strada.com - and I've continued to play rounds there. As of the original writing of this wiki (March 2011) I'm modding my first round at http://www.vendetta-strada.com.
And, that brings me to mafiascum.net as of Dec 2010.

Yet another instance of shoddy detective work on Mr Squirrel's part.

[lalaland]

Mafia alliances are also mentioned on mafiascum here:
http://67.222.17.61/forum/viewtopic.php ... 4042990898

I know I've posted a lot of links, but I want to prove that MrSquirrel must have been withholding info (it took very little to find these).
Also, "mafia alliance" is apparently not as uncommon as you have been led to believe.

I have claimed, provided reasoning, and proof of my doublevoting should be coming soon.
That's all I have.

[jimfinn]

That mafiascum link in the above post is a link to a MishMash game, which to those unfamiliar with the site mafiascum, means that it is not considered properly mafia (that site was where I was introduced to online mafia). Granted, it's still an existence of the phrase, but also one Hank was less likely to have found if he didn't already know the phrase existed.

[lalaland]

That mafiascum link in the above post is a link to a MishMash game, which to those unfamiliar with the site mafiascum, means that it is not considered properly mafia (that site was where I was introduced to online mafia). Granted, it's still an existence of the phrase, but also one Hank was less likely to have found if he didn't already know the phrase existed.

Did you notice the whole forum called mafia alliance?

[jimfinn]

I got a little link-spammed sorry, didn't click all of those links, I just clicked the mafiascum one since I had been there about a year without ever hearing such a phrase and was curious to see where on the site it was. My comment only refers to the mafiascum link. The mafiaalliance wasn't a forum either from my understanding of the BarryAllen link (which I just read), but rather a casual name given to three or four rorums that shared a lot of the same players (none of which anywhere near as famous as mafiascum, I might add)

[shieldgenerator7]

Whoa. Wow, lalaland, way to prove Mr. Squirrel wrong. No I didn't click the links. And you think Hank went to one of those sites and found the term and decided this was the best place to ask the question?

Someone asked what posts had been made to shift my vote on Hank and beleive he was scum. I'll have to reread the thread and find those. Will post later.

[Rodion]

Waiting to see Yoshi's next vote count. That should tell whether Lala has any connections to the doublevoter (himself/herself or a mason/scumbuddy). If he/she has some sort of control on the doublevoter, then the case on him/her gets weaker.

[Rodion]

Wait a second: do you claim to be Dodrio, town, or Dodrio, 3rd-party/wild/survivor/whatever?

Please elaborate.

[lalaland]

I'm a wild doublevoting pokemon. Hank asked about the doublevoter to throw suspicion off himself so he wouldn't become a target.

To prove this, I will use my secret vote on Mr Squirrel, who I voted above.

Currently I'm Dodrio, a wild survivor, but recruitable as far as I know.

[Commander9]

Almost done re-reading. The whole argument that was made against Lala made a lot of sense, but her defence is definitely an interesting one. While I've seen double mafia voters, that is extremely rare and I doubt yoshi used... Thus that would somewhat clear Lala. Now only to see the vote count...

[shieldgenerator7]

From page 26:

Second assummption: One trainer can possibly steal pokemons ability ( I don't see how they could steal a player's role, so I assume it's the ability they get .)

My guess is the trainers out there "catch" Pokémon, and the Pokémon change alignment based off of what trainer catches them. I can support this assumption with a claim: I am Charizard, Wild Survivor Pokémon. I imagine I get abilities once I'm caught, but as of yet I have none.

after rereading the treard i am guessing that there one of 2 possibiliteis

1. that everyone is pokemon and that is all
2. that you are vistor and that there are trainers that catch the pokemon

From page 27:

(In response to Mr. Squirrel)I was thinking that myself when I got the role!

nagerous, being a Survivor is lame. I want someone to recruit me

From page 28:

Looking at the amount of 'wild' pokemon, makes me think the setup might be a lot more complex than we thought. It could be a matter of trainers catching wild pokemon to make factions? *Shrugs*

From page 29:

Sounds like a very viable setup. Obviously we can't be sure unless we found a trainer, but if they are recruiters, I doubt they will be coming forward any time soon.

This might become a very difficult game. If none of us have powers until 'caught', then the scum might have free reign for these first few nights.

From page 30:

And yes, I think it's a very plausible scenario with multiple recruiters and a bunch of 'wild' pokémon.

I wasn't trying to make a defence for him. At this point he hadn't claimed Meowth. First he claimed being 'pikachu a pro-town cop' then changed his answer to 'a 3rd party role'. He may have just been confused and mistook 'wild pokemon' as being pro-town. It was after I posted this that he claimed he was Meowth. At the time the idea of him claiming 'Pikachu a third-party wild pokemon cop' could make sense. If we were under the impression that wild pokemon get caught by trainers then that faction gets to use that ability.

As far as trying to deflect into flavour spec, I think it's pretty important if we have a game with wild pokemon being captured by trainers that's a pretty big factor in influencing how we look at the game.

I find the concept of this game quite clever. Seeing how there are all these wild pokemons lying around, it is very likely that all pokemon roles start out neutral and then they change alignment based on who recruits them. So that means there must be humans recruiting them, possibly Ash, Misty, their friends, Team Rocket, etc. (I don't know my pokemon characters, so I take it you know what I mean). So it would make sense that Meow would start neutral and then get recruited to Team Rocket or soemthing like that. Despite the fact that it is considered an "evil" pokemon, I remember it being said that "no pokemon start out evil, it's the trainers who get them to do good or bad things." So yes, Meow starting out neutral seems reasonable.

Hanks comment about "Mafia alliances" actually makes a decent amount of sense now in the context of neutral pokemon. It could have been a term used in his role PM stating that he needed to recruit pokemon to form an alliance. This would make him scum.

Based on the original arguments against him, the additional insight that our speculation about the game's setup provides, and the fact that he hasn't posted in days, I will place my vote on Hank.

From page 31:

So it would make sense that Meow would start neutral and then get recruited to Team Rocket or soemthing like that.

Let's just go ahead and say not all pokemon start out as neutral... I could see meowth starting out as scum with team rocket.

Since this is basically a huge cult game. There seems like there could be a few factions. Ash, Misty and brock vs Team rocket Vs Gary Vs maybe gym leaders/elite four. IF the cults start out with 2 or three then it seems like AOG should be lynched now for info. But if theres only two or three cults with just a leader apiece then AOG lives and Hank should be investigated about the mafia alliance.

Ok I didn't realize that freezie claimed town miller. That means that some pokemon start out neutral , some mafia, and some town, assuming freezie's telling the truth. So maybe meow is evil in this game. IDK, but I still think AoG might be the jester.

From page 32:

Also, I would rather not lynch AoG in case he is the jester. I'd rather pursue someone else, possibly Hank ("Does anyone know anything about Mafia Alliances"), and other than that I don't know who else sounds scummy, and don't know why nag or jonty have scum tags on them by other players.

Vote Hank

his suspicious behaviour D1 seems rather scummy. I believe that puts him at L-3.

It's very strange that you would lend yourself to this wagon, SG7. Especially when on day 1 you were saying this:

ok, so this whole thing exploded when Hank asked about Mafia Alliances.
My guess is he meant he wanted to have an alliance with another player, hoping that the other player was also town so he could be more protected (from vig kills, cop investigations etc). I don't find the question all that scummy although I uunderstand why it looks that way.
I haven't seen any major scum tells as of yet, but I'm tempted to hop on TheFissk wagon because it looks fun.

Seems to me that a scummate was trying to protect his mate on day 1, but then gave up day 2 and tried to distance himself from him. vote hank, FOS SG7

Back on D1 we were all still blind as to what the game setup might be. I thought we were all pokemon, so I decided Hank was just trying to protect himself. But seeing how we've uncovered a lot of how this game works, it makes sense that Hank asking about a "Mafia Alliance" would make him scum because we now realize that there are trainers in this game that recruit the pokemon and thus his question is telling in that it may reveal that he is a trainer/ recruiter, possibly scum (or rather most likely scum). I didn't want to jump on Hank for an honest looking question without any info. But now in light of the game setup his question doesn't look so innocent anymore. And that is one reason why I voted him.

All of our knowledge on how the game works is purely speculation. There is no "in light of the game setup," because we have shed no light on the the setup itself. We have no evidence of trainers so far, and the evidence we have on roles actually points us away from the "everyone neutral until recruited" idea. Onix was a trainer's pokemon (go back and check). If we are dealing with recruiters, then how could onix have been 'caught' prior to night 1? This bandwagon that we have on hank is based completely on speculation and due to the fact that he hasn't been posting (and won't be defending himself), it is basically a shot in the dark. There has been no clear evidence between day 1 and day 2 that has given any more believability to hank's case. The fact that you flip-flop regardless is scummy if you ask me.

This basically is a summary of the discussion of the setup speculation and reasons why it would make Hank sound scummy. From this discussion it is reasonable to conclude that there are a variety of pokemon with different alignments but they can be recruited and possibly change alignments (? still not sure if non-town role can be recruited and change alignments, etc. but it seems that is possible), thus making it likely that Hank's question might have been about recruiting pokemon. But this fits in jaggedly with lala's claim as double voter. It does make sense actually, so I will unvote for now.
And plus, Mr. Squirrel states that there has been nothing in the game that would indicate recruitment and what not, as shown by the last quoted post. So I think that sounds scummy because from the posts I quoted, there obviously is reason to believe there are recruitments and such.
So, Vote Mr. Squirrel
This and lala's claim that the info on google was there, but Mr. Squirrel said it wasn't. It was very deceptive of you, Mr. Squirrel
Now, this may look like I'm siding with lala (because I'm his scum buddy) but it's because it makes logical sense. Of course, I will be awaiting the next vote count to make sure lala did actually place that ??? vote on Mr. Squirrel, but I'd say lala has cleared himself.

[evilchaos]

I'm guessing Mr. Squirrel didn't search the term mafia alliance as Hank wouldn't have known the term if it wasn't in his role PM. If Hank got the term from Google, then he probably would have been searching "mafia game" "mafia forum game" "how to play mafia" or something similar. He wouldn't just be like "Hey! Let's go search random term #563!" He had to get the term from somewhere, so the issue is whether the term is easily found on the internet when you're NOT looking specifically for that term.

Also, I would like to cast suspicion onto jimfinn.

I got a little link-spammed sorry, didn't click all of those links, I just clicked the mafiascum one since I had been there about a year without ever hearing such a phrase and was curious to see where on the site it was. My comment only refers to the mafiascum link. The mafiaalliance wasn't a forum either from my understanding of the BarryAllen link (which I just read), but rather a casual name given to three or four rorums that shared a lot of the same players (none of which anywhere near as famous as mafiascum, I might add)

Admitted to skimming. He's been lurking for a while now. What's up with that Jim?

[DoomYoshi]

Vote Count:

shieldgenerator7 (1) - freezie
lalaland (7) - Victor Sullivan, Rodion, kratos644, Mr. Squirrel, jimfinn, Haggis McMutton, nagerous L-3
shaggydan (1) - Streaker
Mr. Squirrel (3) - shieldgenerator7, lalaland, ???

With 18 alive it takes 10 to lynch

Deadline in 5 days.

About Streaker: He has been gone for a while, but no other mods have replaced him yet, so I will hold off on that. Thanks for the increased activity everyone, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside:)

[Rodion]

Unvote.

[Mr. Squirrel]

FOS on Mr. Squirrel. Apparently he doesn't know how to use google, because when I typed in <"Mafia alliance">, this was the first link: http://mafiaalliance.wikispaces.com/Home
You can check this out yourself, but it's clearly a forum (inactive for a year or so) for mafia games.

I did find this website, however like you said, it has been abandoned for a while. Plus, if you make a search for "mafia games" "mafia rules" "Mafia mechanics" or anything other than "mafia alliance" it doesn't come up in the top searches. Plus, if hank was in fact asking about that specific site, then why did he phrase his question as: "has anyone ever heard of a mafia alliance?" He designates that is a general thing, probably a mechanic or one group of many because of the "a" before mafia alliance. If he was refering to the site, he would say "has anyone ever heard of the mafia alliance" or "mafiaalliance.com" or something like that.

These other pages also are "mafia alliance" on the web:
http://mafiawars.wikia.com/wiki/Clans/M ... a_Alliance : That annoying "Mafia wars" facebook game has an "alliance" in it. He could have picked up the term there.

This is also bs. From what I can tell, the page you just quoted is the Metropolitan Mafia Alliance, a clan in that game. If all clans in that game were called "________ mafia alliance" then I would understand, but from a search on that wiki that is the only clan in that entire game where "Mafia alliance" is found. If he was asking about that, then he would have used the full name "Metropolitan mafia alliance" to refer to it.

There's also a facebook.com/mafia.alliance which I'm assuming also has to do with the facebook game (I can't access facebook on this network), but again it's an instance of the phrase that Hank could have picked up on.

This link is broken for me, but that may be because I'm on a restricted network right now?
but http://crmafia.net/topic/459-the-mafia- ... on-league/ Which even mentions pokemon! so I don't know what that's about... but it seems as though if Hank were to have googled "pokemon mafia" or something like that, this would have come up and planted the idea.

The first one is, again, a specific thing. I told you, hank's question was phrased in a way that it wouldn't be a website, forum, or clan. Thats what most of your links are.

Given your claim, I will unvote only after I see the new vote count. I still don't trust you though.

[jimfinn]

I'm guessing Mr. Squirrel didn't search the term mafia alliance as Hank wouldn't have known the term if it wasn't in his role PM. If Hank got the term from Google, then he probably would have been searching "mafia game" "mafia forum game" "how to play mafia" or something similar. He wouldn't just be like "Hey! Let's go search random term #563!" He had to get the term from somewhere, so the issue is whether the term is easily found on the internet when you're NOT looking specifically for that term.

Also, I would like to cast suspicion onto jimfinn.

I got a little link-spammed sorry, didn't click all of those links, I just clicked the mafiascum one since I had been there about a year without ever hearing such a phrase and was curious to see where on the site it was. My comment only refers to the mafiascum link. The mafiaalliance wasn't a forum either from my understanding of the BarryAllen link (which I just read), but rather a casual name given to three or four rorums that shared a lot of the same players (none of which anywhere near as famous as mafiascum, I might add)

Admitted to skimming. He's been lurking for a while now. What's up with that Jim?

I didn't skim his posts, I just didn't click all the links. BIG difference. And the first one I looked at (I looked at more after making that first post) threw a lot of the case he made with that linkspam in the rubbish heap, from my perspective.

[lalaland]

Squirrel, the new vote count was up 2 posts ago.
Also, I've tried to reason out why the phrase "mafia alliance" was said by Hank.
Hank/I are wild, and he obviously wanted to be snatched up inorder to have a more "exciting" role.

I'm not going to spend any more time defending Hank's posts unless there are other specific questions I need to address, because we're going in circles, I don't know anything more, and it's a waste of time.
I made my claim, you can see the vote.
As a side note, I'm female so you can refer to me as "she" or "her".

[evilchaos]

I'm guessing Mr. Squirrel didn't search the term mafia alliance as Hank wouldn't have known the term if it wasn't in his role PM. If Hank got the term from Google, then he probably would have been searching "mafia game" "mafia forum game" "how to play mafia" or something similar. He wouldn't just be like "Hey! Let's go search random term #563!" He had to get the term from somewhere, so the issue is whether the term is easily found on the internet when you're NOT looking specifically for that term.

Also, I would like to cast suspicion onto jimfinn.

I got a little link-spammed sorry, didn't click all of those links, I just clicked the mafiascum one since I had been there about a year without ever hearing such a phrase and was curious to see where on the site it was. My comment only refers to the mafiascum link. The mafiaalliance wasn't a forum either from my understanding of the BarryAllen link (which I just read), but rather a casual name given to three or four rorums that shared a lot of the same players (none of which anywhere near as famous as mafiascum, I might add)

Admitted to skimming. He's been lurking for a while now. What's up with that Jim?

I didn't skim his posts, I just didn't click all the links. BIG difference. And the first one I looked at (I looked at more after making that first post) threw a lot of the case he made with that linkspam in the rubbish heap, from my perspective.

Not looking at his links is like not reading any quotes in a case. That's his proof of something, and not looking at it is as bad as skimming.

[shieldgenerator7]

Squirrel, the new vote count was up 2 posts ago.
Also, I've tried to reason out why the phrase "mafia alliance" was said by Hank.
Hank/I are wild, and he obviously wanted to be snatched up inorder to have a more "exciting" role.

I'm not going to spend any more time defending Hank's posts unless there are other specific questions I need to address, because we're going in circles, I don't know anything more, and it's a waste of time.
I made my claim, you can see the vote.
As a side note, I'm female so you can refer to me as "she" or "her".

thanks. I hate it when I think someone's a she and it ends up being a he. Ackward situation for me and the other person. And I do see you ??? vote on Mr. Squirrel so I'll assume your claim is truthful.

[kratos644]

Unvote The question is where do we go from here? Now that lala is clear my suspicions on freezie are no longer as big.