[UNKNOWN] Mafia Day 5 - The Disappearance [Abandoned]

[DoomYoshi]

And I got the evergrowing feeling that saf is trying to divert our attention on anything and anyone here...

Well do you have a better lead? Pressuring Nam got us nowhere, I then go to the standard target a submariner.

While I can understand targeting a submariner, you know that it is a cop out and a way for scum to pretend to be 'helping' town. And yet you admit to it. Furthermore, usually the goal of voting submariners is to get them to post. Ndrs has now posted, and yet you haven't unvoted.

And I got the evergrowing feeling that saf is trying to divert our attention on anything and anyone here...

Saf is not the only one doing this. Take nagerous, for example. Why would you suggest he is a better target?

[Rodion]

Bleed Green - I'd like you to tell me the name of your character (no need for alignment, power or winning condition - I just want the name).

[safariguy5]

And I got the evergrowing feeling that saf is trying to divert our attention on anything and anyone here...

Well do you have a better lead? Pressuring Nam got us nowhere, I then go to the standard target a submariner.

While I can understand targeting a submariner, you know that it is a cop out and a way for scum to pretend to be 'helping' town. And yet you admit to it. Furthermore, usually the goal of voting submariners is to get them to post. Ndrs has now posted, and yet you haven't unvoted.

And I got the evergrowing feeling that saf is trying to divert our attention on anything and anyone here...

Saf is not the only one doing this. Take nagerous, for example. Why would you suggest he is a better target?

Why haven't I unvoted? Again, it's because the posts are lacking in content. First he basically says "Oh yeah I submarined, but other people do it too, so you should look at them...

Not trying make excuses, but I'm in a few games with C9 and was expecting him to be out for the week. Therefore, I didn't keep track of the thread. It's three in the morning, so I'll come back in the morning to read and post if I find anything that catches my attention.

BTW, not fair to single me out for "submarining", there is a few other names I can think of. This is how many pages I had to go back to find the last post from (sorry in advance if I miscounted or missed any posts – I'm tired):

ndrs 6 pages
illiad 8 pages
vioIet 9 pages
sheepofdumb 10pages
jeraado 11 pages
karelpietertje 17 pages

So why me safariguy4?

Then he says

Quite frankly, because you haven't gotten a lot of experience and all of the people that you've listed have played mafia and I know they can be productive. This is what, the second game you've played and neither of them have you been particularly active or contributing very much.

To me, that's not much of a reason to vote me over the other guys. I don't see the logic. But it could've been worse, could've been you picked me on random or just because you wanted to see more of my beautiful mustache.

By the way, this is my first Mafia game.

Which is basically a subtle way of playing the noob card.

I wanted a post that actually has some substance to it. The simplest thing to do would be to take a stand on this Namliam issue. Either you think that it's suspicious and there's some explanation that may involve third parties, or you think that the issue will work itself out. Not even taking a position on the most recent issue is unproductive and doesn't help anyone get a read on you. I can't say he's "acting townish or acting scummy" simply because he hasn't posted anything that we can nail him down on.

I'm not asking for post quantity, I'm asking for post quality. 1 well presented case per day is much better than 10 fluff posts that give you the illusion of activity while saying nothing.

[VioIet]

And I got the evergrowing feeling that saf is trying to divert our attention on anything and anyone here...

Well do you have a better lead? Pressuring Nam got us nowhere, I then go to the standard target a submariner.

You.

Wow freezie, you are being awfully over-aggressive here, and I really don't think it is for your own good.

Saf presented a fair post- referencing prior issues, but you just respond back with a one-word answer. You could have at least given more. If you think he's scummy, please present a case, because a one-word response isn't going to shift my vote.

[nagerous]

Bleed Green - I'd like you to tell me the name of your character (no need for alignment, power or winning condition - I just want the name).

Where did this come from?

[ndrs]

OK, here is my impression of the dramatic cut-scene that everyone avoids talking about.

The Knights Templar: could be recruiters as the letter implies that Godfrey de Saint-Omer was recruited during the night. But then again Godfrey is an order officer, and that seems a bit odd for a new recruit?

We have the guy with the knife (probably sports a crossbow as well), who tries to kill Godfrey, but fails and kills Henry the Monk instead when the Monk willingly takes his masters place. Is this the work of the Mafia? Or some rival church or order?

And Jacques, Henry's brother. Doesn't approve of the Order – likely a plain townie?

Then it's the Shadow, a stealthy assassin trying to murder Godfrey, Jacques or Henry. But fails for some reason. Possibly because his target is already dead (Henry) or because his target was already protected by Henry's night mechanic (Godfrey).

Let's hear you thoughts!

[ndrs]

About the Namliam case: I'm pretty sure Nam would come here to answer to you all if he was allowed to by C9/his role. He is pretty active in other forums. Also, my gut feeling tells me that C9's posts in the matter tells us to relax and just wait and see. Maybe there is no danger to him (yeah, he is a man-dude).

If nothing happens in the next couple of days or if we can't find other leads, things change.

[ndrs]

I'm not asking for post quantity, I'm asking for post quality. 1 well presented case per day is much better than 10 fluff posts that give you the illusion of activity while saying nothing.

Says the king of fluff. Your post count since the cut-scene is 15, hardly mentioning the scene at all. In all of these post you are going down the safest and most neutral way possible. First very actively advocating for pressure on Nam, and then putting pressure on me, which again is safer then going after the more "experienced guys", as you put it. Very safe.

I'll have to read back on you to see if there is anything worth pursuing.

[Bleed_Green]

Bleed Green - I'd like you to tell me the name of your character (no need for alignment, power or winning condition - I just want the name).

I do not see why you need my name,, or where this even came from. May I ask why so aggressive for my name?

[strike wolf]

This question did come out of nowhere...I really don't see the reason for asking for the name...

[Rodion]

This question did come out of nowhere...I really don't see the reason for asking for the name...

You'll have your explanation after he answers me.

Bleed Green - I'd like you to tell me the name of your character (no need for alignment, power or winning condition - I just want the name).

I do not see why you need my name,, or where this even came from. May I ask why so aggressive for my name?

I'll explain after you give us your name. Again, it's not like I'm forcing someone with 0 votes to make a "full claim": I don't mind if you refrain from specifying your alignment (you'll say it is town, as everyone else would), power or winning condition. Just the name, please.

[nagerous]

This question did come out of nowhere...I really don't see the reason for asking for the name...

You'll have your explanation after he answers me.

Bleed Green - I'd like you to tell me the name of your character (no need for alignment, power or winning condition - I just want the name).

I do not see why you need my name,, or where this even came from. May I ask why so aggressive for my name?

I'll explain after you give us your name. Again, it's not like I'm forcing someone with 0 votes to make a "full claim": I don't mind if you refrain from specifying your alignment (you'll say it is town, as everyone else would), power or winning condition. Just the name, please.

That strategy ultimately won't wash in a mafia game, you alone can't pressurise someone to release their name without providing a little more evidence or indeed not presenting a case upon them at all. If you really need information or something you should perhaps compromise somehow, like ask for the first letter of his name if that assists you in this quest of sorts rather than push for a full name claim out the blue.

[Rodion]

This question did come out of nowhere...I really don't see the reason for asking for the name...

You'll have your explanation after he answers me.

Bleed Green - I'd like you to tell me the name of your character (no need for alignment, power or winning condition - I just want the name).

I do not see why you need my name,, or where this even came from. May I ask why so aggressive for my name?

I'll explain after you give us your name. Again, it's not like I'm forcing someone with 0 votes to make a "full claim": I don't mind if you refrain from specifying your alignment (you'll say it is town, as everyone else would), power or winning condition. Just the name, please.

That strategy ultimately won't wash in a mafia game, you alone can't pressurise someone to release their name without providing a little more evidence or indeed not presenting a case upon them at all. If you really need information or something you should perhaps compromise somehow, like ask for the first letter of his name if that assists you in this quest of sorts rather than push for a full name claim out the blue.

First letter is not going to cut it. I'm not some sort of lyncher trying to get a specific person killed, if that's what scares you.

I understand where you're coming from, Nag. I could provide the evidence right now, but doing so would defeat the whole point of the question (question would become unnefective).

I guess you'll have to trust me that I have a good reason for doing what I did. All I can give you, however, is my word. If you let him answer and think my ensuing explanation is totally bull, then you all can have an easy-lynch in punishing me for my "aggressiveness". Does that sound like a good deal?

[strike wolf]

Rodion in my honest opinion you either need to come up with a legitimate reason for why you need the name or move on. At the very least I would not support pressing someone to give out their name as a sign of trust when there is no pressure.

[freezie]

Violet, I presented my reasons to vote saf, and my one word post was in answer to his question directed at me.
He asked if I had a better lead than inactives. I said saf was my lead.
Go back and read my last posts if you want a proof..
But since YOU asked a ''well presented case'' against saf..here you go:

Besides doing the easy thing and lynching shield, the other thing we could do is go for an inactive Day 1.

Namliam
NDRS
Campin_Killer

seem to be the least active, especially when we factor track record in. We could pressure activity out of one of them.

Here is his first post on day 1 that tries to pressure inactives. Granted, it'S day 1 so nothing out of the ordinary..However, keep in mind he mentioned ndrs back then. Ndrs has made a few good substances post afterward.

yeah I'm a newbie and still trying to work on my "trolling" (I still don't quite understand that term, but I get the jist). Sorry if I'm not up to par yet, I'm still working my way up there.
I agree with Streaker about voting for the inactives. if they're never around they can't be of much help to the town.
Unvote Vote Campin_Killer
@Iliad - And why should I have to defend myself right now? It's still in the joke vote stage, although it appears it is coming out a bit.
To be honest, i don't get the case on Streaker. It doesn't seem he did anything scummy.
AoG, however, did 2 unusual things this game: he voted before the day scene AND tried to force the town from the joke vote stage. It seems very unusual, even for him, and although I can't tell thus far if he is scum because of it but I just wanted to point that out, maybe it's due to nervousness of being found out as a mafia member? IDK as of yet. Do you care to explain this AoG?

Trust me, it's 100% out of the joke vote stage at this point. The problem here is that CK not being around a lot is also somewhat true for other people. There's been a very uneven amount of participation in this game, and by no means is he the only person flying under the radar. But I'm willing to give shield a chance this time, and unvote vote Campin_Killer but I am keeping an eye on you right now.

Saf once again trying to divert attention from the current cases back to an inactive, CK.

Then:

I think a prod of AoG is in order and a replacement if possible. Lynching inactives Day 1 is less desirable in larger games I think because we definitely have more leads.

He has tried to get the pressure on inactive for half the day, then post that lynching an inactive is not desirable. Then, why, he is diverting all the attention on them?

Hmm, I thought I was voting for someone. Oh well. I really wanted to give shield a chance, I really did. But you can't use the noob card every single game you've played. With deadline approaching, I'd rather hear a claim from someone who's active than lynch an inactive and pray he's mafia.

vote shield

Again he's contradicting himself


In the meantime, I voted saf for trying to push us on pressuring Nam, who is clearly not allowed to talk today, and even if he were, we know something is up with him.

After saf realised that we would not bite on lynching nam, he goes back on trying to divert attention on inactives:

Well neither ndrs nor bleed green have posted since the start of Day 2. So I will FOS both of them for extended submarining.

Afterward...Realised I said that Saf pointed out Ndrs back on day 1? Look at him going here:

Not trying make excuses, but I'm in a few games with C9 and was expecting him to be out for the week. Therefore, I didn't keep track of the thread. It's three in the morning, so I'll come back in the morning to read and post if I find anything that catches my attention.

BTW, not fair to single me out for "submarining", there is a few other names I can think of. This is how many pages I had to go back to find the last post from (sorry in advance if I miscounted or missed any posts – I'm tired):

ndrs 6 pages
illiad 8 pages
vioIet 9 pages
sheepofdumb 10pages
jeraado 11 pages
karelpietertje 17 pages

So why me safariguy4?

Quite frankly, because you haven't gotten a lot of experience and all of the people that you've listed have played mafia and I know they can be productive. This is what, the second game you've played and neither of them have you been particularly active or contributing very much.

I can tell you personally that I likd Ndrs' posts as of yet. They seem logical and offer substance..However saf has voted ndrs for the fact that he wasn't contributing.

[I wanted a post that actually has some substance to it. The simplest thing to do would be to take a stand on this Namliam issue. [...] I'm not asking for post quantity, I'm asking for post quality. 1 well presented case per day is much better than 10 fluff posts that give you the illusion of activity while saying nothing.

I cutted off most of the post as mine is long enough already...Here is saf ONCE AGAIN diverting our attention back to Nam, and also manipulating Ndrs to post in Saf's direction, by telling him that his posts have been fluff and of no quality. Personally, Ndrs' posts have had enough substance to look at, while saf simply throws the ball back on any other players' court.

Both Vio and Saf has now played the card that no '' well presented case'' have been showed..While they both don't. I beleive saf to be up to no good, and that's why I voted him and told him head on that he was my lead for today.


As far as Rodion's case....You either post a valid reason to ask, or you stop asking...for now you get my Fos for that


And I realised I vote saf without using color, so I'll fix that now Unvote Vote: Saf

[naxus]

I agree with Rodin on this. Why do we need to know this should we not put presser on some one else who could be mafia to see if we can figure more out? we already know that the nam is a lover that good!! now lets focused on other people the lovers could both be town i am thinking more and more that they are both town!

Also target what the hell are you talking about?Rodion wants a full claim from nam

unvote Vote target for still no explanation here and seemingly avoiding the question when a few others have asked about it

And FOS rodion for trying to get a name. You can either try and present a good enough case to cause pressure or give an explanation as to why you need the name.


With safari and freezie, Freezie seems to be pushing somewhat overly hard on safari. I don't see the evidence your presenting against safari as enough. He was pressuring inactives assuming that they were submarining. He then added pressure to nam(Earlier than when com9 announced she wouldn't be replaced) and was trying to get answers.

[Rodion]

And FOS rodion for trying to get a name. You can either try and present a good enough case to cause pressure or give an explanation as to why you need the name.

As I said, by explaining the case first the case loses it's power. Think of it as a D.A./lawyer questioning a shady witness - a witness that has a decent probability of lying. They ask their questions, the witness gives them an answer and after that they make their case (sometimes right after the answer, sometimes on their closing statements). Now, what would happen if, prior to getting the answer, the lawyer explained everything that crossed his mind. The shady witness, if lying, would consider all those thoughts before giving the answer, thus raising their chances to get away with the possible lie. I'm on a similar scenario here. I can't really reveal my thoughts before I get the answer.

I have a suspicion and I have a pretty good chance of finding the truth depending on the answer I get.

The problem is, the more everyone FOS me and defends Bleed, the more time he has to understand my suspicions and to make a story that will deflect them. That's exactly what I wanted to avoid. For those reasons, I'll cast FOS on every clown that is obstructing my investigations.

[strike wolf]

And FOS rodion for trying to get a name. You can either try and present a good enough case to cause pressure or give an explanation as to why you need the name.

As I said, by explaining the case first the case loses it's power. Think of it as a D.A./lawyer questioning a shady witness - a witness that has a decent probability of lying. They ask their questions, the witness gives them an answer and after that they make their case (sometimes right after the answer, sometimes on their closing statements). Now, what would happen if, prior to getting the answer, the lawyer explained everything that crossed his mind. The shady witness, if lying, would consider all those thoughts before giving the answer, thus raising their chances to get away with the possible lie. I'm on a similar scenario here. I can't really reveal my thoughts before I get the answer.

I have a suspicion and I have a pretty good chance of finding the truth depending on the answer I get.

The problem is, the more everyone FOS me and defends Bleed, the more time he has to understand my suspicions and to make a story that will deflect them. That's exactly what I wanted to avoid. For those reasons, I'll cast FOS on every clown that is obstructing my investigations.

Well rodion think about it this way we are all cops and no one knows the others identity and everyone is a suspect. I am questioning you and you tell me "hey I need suspect #4 to answer a question I have. One that could endanger him if he is not among the guilty but maybe give the off chance that we catch scum. I can't tell you the reason but I promise I will after I have gotten the answer." What reason do we have of allowing this based on just faith that you are well intentioned? I have no reason to believe you are not town but everyone is a suspect.

Furthermore if you are wrong and he turns out to be town. All you have done is put him in more jeopardy.

[Rodion]

Wolf, that's why I just asked for the name, no powers or anything else.

And it's more than an off chance, I'm sure.

What I can offer in good faith is accepting to be lynched without complaints (and perhaps voting myself) if the public later thinks my investigation was not legit. I can also offer a hint on my own character. But I'm only willing to do that after I get my answers, for the reasons that I've already stated and that I'm sure you comprehend.

[safariguy5]

I'm not asking for post quantity, I'm asking for post quality. 1 well presented case per day is much better than 10 fluff posts that give you the illusion of activity while saying nothing.

Says the king of fluff. Your post count since the cut-scene is 15, hardly mentioning the scene at all. In all of these post you are going down the safest and most neutral way possible. First very actively advocating for pressure on Nam, and then putting pressure on me, which again is safer then going after the more "experienced guys", as you put it. Very safe.

I'll have to read back on you to see if there is anything worth pursuing.

I was among the first to believe that there was something fishy on nam not dying and offered a possibility of some sort of recruiting mechanism as to why she didn't die. And there has been no indication that she cannot talk this day, everyone just assumes that. She wasn't particularly active Day 1 either, and based on that track record, I'm not going to assume she is restricted from posting today. If this was someone who posted a lot like fircoal or me, then we might make that argument.

Let's take a look at the reasoning for why there might be a cult or something. From the opening scene.

There are only 3 unopened PM's, so 22 people have read their roles. I might as well start this.



Time: Dusk, around 07:00.
Date: Unknown.
Location: Malmö Lorient Napoli Townswille Somewhere in Europe.

*A letter is being written*

Dear Elizabeth,
I've just wanted to write that I'm fine and I've been doing well. There has been lots of unrest lately with all those religious conflicts (I feel so old!) and all kinds of bandits hanging around, but I'm confident I'll pull it through. I really don't have all that much time as I have to go back working to our guild master (what a prick he is...) and I don't want to lose my apprenticeship status.

As soon as I'll be done this year with training and I'll go to visit our local Cardinal, I'll be returning. Since I know that no one else back at home will be able to read this, just do what you always do - go to the Church. Best of luck and may God be with you!

Yours,
Henry.

***

Somewhere far far away, in a galaxy far away behind 7 seas behind Mediteranean sea, somewhere along the Westernest part of Asia in a high white castle, a shadow has been slowly crawling downwards - his deed has been done and it was time to go back. His dark, bloody trenchoat and an completely expressionless face could have told one the story of what he had done... but only the very few people could believe the magnitude of what he had done. He had managed to kill one of the biggest threats to the guild in the Holy Area and he managed to get 2 thugs to do it while he himself also eliminated a couple other enemies... 49 men were dead, but that didn't bother him - there was work to be done.

Conrad of Montferrat, a flavour npc, has been deadened

Day 1 Begin.

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch. Deadline is May 5th.

Looks to me like the same shadow that tried to kill but was blocked. I thought that it might be a Dracula reference, and he might have some goons or lovers or whatever to start with. So I thought it odd that nam didn't die right away. But since people seem to think that waiting an extra day is fine with them, then I go to the standard pressure a submariner. My position on nam is clear, I hardly think that would be fluff.

@freezie, this is standard play from me. In lieu of a strong suspect, I usually vote the inactive. All your case on me is demonstrating is that I have been consistent from Day 1 to now. Especially in a large game, submariners may prevent us from getting enough votes to get a lynch and makes vote pattern analysis more difficult.

But since ndrs has made a good post/defense of himself, I will unvote

[Iliad]

Commander sure loves some non-human entity killing everyone. Not entirely sure what it is, in this medieval theme/western literature. Quite possibly a vampire as as saf said.

Rodioin you cannot demand information form another player like that, even if you were absolutely confirmed town we would be slightly iffy about it. If you found something suspicious about bleed green, then share it. An entire name can obviously reveal quiet a bit about someone's role and alignment and we don't go and massclaim like that.

[pancakemix]

I'll agree that Rodion's actions are a bit strange. I think a fuller explanation is in order here.

On saf: He might've been pushing a bit hard on ndrs but as he said, that's his typical strategy in these scenarios. Not really worth a vote, imo. Freezie seems to be pretty agressive about it though. May want to keep an eye on him.

[Rodion]

Sigh. You'll have your explanation before the end of the day.

Alright, I'll rephrase my question in a less intrusive manner. Granted, my probability of catching scum will diminish, but at least I get a shot (and if I get to catch scum today with 6 people holding me back, I demand MVP honors ).

Bleed - what book is your character from? Romeo and Juliet? King Lear? Hamlet? Macbeth? Merchant of Venice? None of the aforementioned?

That's all.

And pre-emptive FOS on whoever says something that might induce Bleed's answer.

[DoomYoshi]

Sigh. You'll have your explanation before the end of the day.

Alright, I'll rephrase my question in a less intrusive manner. Granted, my probability of catching scum will diminish, but at least I get a shot (and if I get to catch scum today with 6 people holding me back, I demand MVP honors ).

Bleed - what book is your character from? Romeo and Juliet? King Lear? Hamlet? Macbeth? Merchant of Venice? None of the aforementioned?

That's all.

And pre-emptive FOS on whoever says something that might induce Bleed's answer.

What Shakespearean play are the Knights Templar from? Why would you consider that he is from a Shakespearean play?

[Rodion]

Sigh. You'll have your explanation before the end of the day.

Alright, I'll rephrase my question in a less intrusive manner. Granted, my probability of catching scum will diminish, but at least I get a shot (and if I get to catch scum today with 6 people holding me back, I demand MVP honors ).

Bleed - what book is your character from? Romeo and Juliet? King Lear? Hamlet? Macbeth? Merchant of Venice? None of the aforementioned?

That's all.

And pre-emptive FOS on whoever says something that might induce Bleed's answer.

What Shakespearean play are the Knights Templar from? Why would you consider that he is from a Shakespearean play?

Can't you let him answer with his own head? What harm can that cause?

That pre-emptive FOS is already pointing at someone.