[Official] Wheel of Time:EotW [8/14] D4:Twisted Pattern

[Iron Butterfly]

@Talapus obviously I'm not going to allow myself to be lynched. I doubt anyone who would want to vote for me would trade me though. Besides that I might make an executive decision at the end of the day, since I do value lynches happening. So I'd I see people who have votes going no where I'll tell them to move them, or do so myself at the end of the day.

Storr do you keep votes for the day or the whole game??

[StorrZerg]

@Talapus obviously I'm not going to allow myself to be lynched. I doubt anyone who would want to vote for me would trade me though. Besides that I might make an executive decision at the end of the day, since I do value lynches happening. So I'd I see people who have votes going no where I'll tell them to move them, or do so myself at the end of the day.

Storr do you keep votes for the day or the whole game??

Just the day

[virus90]

to add some more information/give some opinion/reads.

so for people disliking my first post,
it did contain a hint again.
i randomly selected someone, not to vote, but for my day action. since it had to be sent in by day 2, and i didnt know what the hack it would do i decided that a random pick would be just fine. made a bit of a story around it as it not being to obvious, but since apparently (almost?) everyone has a day action, and a lot seem very similar, i think i can clarify that piece of information.

as for mitch, i dont like his playstyle, some screaming in caps, wants to vote me, ok, but with no further explanation. he is pretty distracting in my opinion. dont want to lynch him at this point since i give him the benefit of the doubt, and if he has such a protown ability we might better use it tonight. since i guess its probably 1 time use i would suggest that he tells us D2 what he did, and WHY.

As for storr, i am weary of his ability, if it appears to be good to be true, it probably is to good to be true. I had a role in create your own character mafia in which i gained peoples votes and they never got them back, i was 3th party and goal was to gain a majority of votes or something. (Pancakemix, Create your own character mafia). so personaly i watch out for that one.

endgame comes with statistical/general information about day 1 being a crapshot and suggests lynching mitch is a viable option. i kind of agree with this logic. i mean the guy has a point, but at this point we already know mitch has some "very pro town" ability. and we can always discuss this option again at the end of the day, bigger fish to go after now i guess.

so far marashu and metsfanmax havent been able to convince me much. (Read i would approve presure for that reason, but want it on talapus now, for reasons mentioned in my last post)
dd just came with 1 massive post and streaker posts more often but their fight distracts me from forming an opinion at the moment.
know i am missing wing -> town read.
and migjt miss others.. off to bed!

[virus90]

not to be misunderstood; i dont say presure storr/ lynch him. or anything like that.
i would say; lets not all visit him tomorrow. lets see if people really get votes back etc. lets just be carefull about it.

[StorrZerg]

not to be misunderstood; i dont say presure storr/ lynch him. or anything like that.
i would say; lets not all visit him tomorrow. lets see if people really get votes back etc. lets just be carefull about it.

lol fake paranoia

[madmitch]

sorry to burst your bubble Virus I did not vote for you,I said if I had a choice I would and one reason is you usually nail me right away so I thought I would to it first, about the vote talk to Storr he has full control of mine and he usually knows who to go after

[StorrZerg]

and when do you get your vote back madmitch?

[Talapus]

EBWOP What did you do during the day?

As in my action? I didn't get to visit anyone if that's what you are implying.

[Iron Butterfly]

sorry to burst your bubble Virus I did not vote for you,I said if I had a choice I would and one reason is you usually nail me right away so I thought I would to it first, about the vote talk to Storr he has full control of mine and he usually knows who to go after

So your content with him voting for you?

This in a nutshell is why you are frustrating.

You imply you would vote for Virus to "get him first"rather then because he is scum.How does that help Town? The thing is you did have a choice but you traded it away.

I cant wait to see how he replies to storrs question.

[Talapus]

sorry to burst your bubble Virus I did not vote for you,I said if I had a choice I would and one reason is you usually nail me right away so I thought I would to it first, about the vote talk to Storr he has full control of mine and he usually knows who to go after

So one of the main reasons you want to vote for someone is because in past games they have voted for you or gotten enough of others to vote for you that you end up out of the game? I that what I'm getting from this? Because mitch....that's a terrible reason to vote a player in a game. Maybe as a joke vote but every new game that player gets a new role so this is a crap shoot and based entirely from meta.

[StorrZerg]

charm, why do you not have a name.... trolly woman isn't real and it wasn't even spelled right

[rishaed]

charm, why do you not have a name.... trolly woman isn't real and it wasn't even spelled right

Wrong Game

[rishaed]

Vote Count:

WCmdrG (1) - mtamburini
Storr (1) - dd515
Endgame (1) - hotshot53
madmitch (2) - Endgame, Streaker
Talapus (3) - WCmdrG, Storr, virus90
Streaker (1) - IB
virus90 (1) - madmitch

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch.
Deadline 28.6.15

[Metsfanmax]

absolutely not. At some point imake take control of the votes and do as i wish since that is perfectly within reason for me, how ever i see no reason to not allow people to still use their votes. Its important that accountability is still had on hotshot and madmitch. Since they have no vote, maybe they input less, complain about no vote, etc. giving them the option to still use and do as they wish with their vote, means that im not manipulating the votes.

You are manipulating the votes. That is precisely what your role does. It is pure nonsense to try and spin a vote stealing/trading/rigging role as somehow doing anything other than vote manipulation. I really hope you see this.

If you are using this alleged power over them to attempt to 'force' them into contributing, that is vote manipulation just as much as ignoring their advice entirely would be. Possibly more.

As for their alignment, 1 mafia vote isn't going to kill us if one is mafia, and it will be fair easier to try and catch someone with honest voting history, than if they have no voting history.

Lol, honest voting history. You stole their vote and you somehow expect "honest" votes out of them?

ANd obviously they should have more input than you for tons of reasons. 1 i have no read on you so why would i ever listen to you.

You have no read on them, why would you ever listen to them. (Apart from the above reasons, which I showed are wrong.)

2 we went into a trade agreement, they know something about me, and i have something of theirs.

Trade agreement is when two people agree to trade. This is instead one person visiting you randomly and then accepting the option to 'trade' their vote for an ability. They didn't trade with you, they traded with the mod.

Anyway, how is this relevant to the question of why they should have control over their vote? This was exactly the fucking point I was making; they got something in return for losing their vote. If you give them their vote and they still get the item, then you're not only ruining the point of the role, you're also playing the game super dishonestly.

3, by forcing them to vote i can then try and read how they are playing the game since im still leaving control over their votes.

You aren't actually forcing them to do anything. What are you going to do if they don't vote? Use their vote against them? Those two votes will get you real far buddy.

A bold statement to make for someone who admitted they didn't read the book.
An even bolder statement to make and try and call out someone for flavor when one hasn't read anything. am I RIGHT. ANd the way he is talking, he might not know who i am, maybe he does, but its clear he has some some research into the game. reading wikis etc. So calling him out educating himself on the game lol?

I get the sense that you did not actually read his quote, and were just looking for reasons to get mad at me. Because if you had, you would notice that he wasn't just flavor speculating, he was saying there was only one possibility for a particular character. That is a very strong claim to make just from reading a wiki. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just bold. am I RIGHT. You trying to spin this to become about me makes you look like a prick.

Honestly i hated this first bit into the game. complaint after complaint.

Yes, show 'em how much you hate complaining by complaining about it.

[madmitch]

@ Storr I traded my vote with you fair and square you do not have to leave it on Virus,you can put it any where you want that was the deal

[StorrZerg]

@ Storr I traded my vote with you fair and square you do not have to leave it on Virus,you can put it any where you want that was the deal

That doesn't get you out of obligation. you will use your vote, or be lynched. You called him scummy, so i put your vote on virus.

You will make accusations, you will formal people, and yes this is me being manipulative mets, because it is for the good of town to make people accountable.

[mtamburini]

Not to belittle your case virus, but I'm going to keep pressure on you for more contributions because 1 read over 6 days isn't good enough.

Talapus maybe did slip, worth looking into sure.
unvote vote Talapus

RL been busy havent read the thread in order just virus posts. Ill read through talapus posts tomorrow

[dd515087]

Lets look at Storr

We know two have visited him. They both confirm they lost a vote. They both confirm they received a pro Town ability. Some have argued (Mets) that there are no Pro Town abilities as mafia has it's equivalent. I disagree. Mafia has no use for doc as they do the killing. Now as a matter of probability a doc would come in handy against an SK or Vig but on the whole the odds it being useful are minimized compared to Town. Granted some roles are interchangeable, role blocker, jailer for block, vig action. BUT A cop would not be needed nor a tracker or watcher but they would severely handicap mafia especially if several were granted in a day.

Seems like a pretty crappy mafia role/ability that, 1) A player with some semblance of common sense would notice they lost their vote when they visited Storr. At the very least the evidence would become more apparent the game wore on as more people lost votes.
Uhh he gets control over the lynch, or more control at the very least, so that is pretty good for mafia

2nd. It would only serve as a handicap to mafia. You think mafia wants an unknown number of Town abilities floating around?
True. BUT Storr is not in control of whether or not the trade happens, the visitor is.

Now granted Storr plays head games and likes to claim day one. The difference is his fate is tied to several others. It is hard to maintain a con when other people play an important part in how your role works.

BUT this is what bothers me now. Why would mafia visit Storr now knowing they would lose their vote?
Because if he was mafia they would still retain their votes and get an additional night ability. This seems kind of OP when I think about it though... maybe Storr is 3rd Party?

This is also Daytime. We are dealing with day actions. If Storr is Town why would we need a player to give Town Buffs...unless they will really be needed?
What? They traded their vote for an additional ability at night(?). If he is town then that is great.

Comments in blue

[dd515087]

Some of my responses in longer posts will be included in the quote in blue lettering.

Anyone actually think I should explain my understanding of flavour? I think not. Yes I have a very good idea who Storr and Madmitch are. This I have gained from research. No I dont think I should actually tell you.

This is mostly a response to Mets and DD.

No, keep it to yourself. I missed whatever post where you said you did research (if you made a post like that).

If we all visit Storr and he is Mafia, then he has the power to control nightkills, and the power to control lynchs. We're screwed.

Uhh... Yeah. Let's not all visit Storr tomorrow guys. I think we should discuss how much vote power we want to give Storr and who should visit him. ALSO this discussion should take place at the beginning of D2 so that HotShot and Madmitch can confirm 100% that their gifts are helpful to town (that is if they are town and not mafia, we need to have that discussion too).

@End - All well and good, but you are not even trying to draw out Mafia. Its akin to giving up. I agree with lynching Madmitch if we have no better option come the deadline, but to go in with the intention of a safe lynch is not helpful.

It's also scummy AF. As has been said the only person who came up with a decent reason to vote mitch IMO (and someone else's I think) is IB.

@DD - Sure you log in to play risk, but I am not talking about just logging in. I am talking about you quite regularly browsing the mafia forums, which you have claimed you do not do. Do I need to take multiple screenshots to prove this or are you going to own up?

I could be reading HP mafia? I could also just be keeping up so that I don't have to read a ton of pages in order to get to the present? I don't have the most time in the world bc of work and RL things (also I just get tired of mafia mind games after a bit), but I will try and be more active.

I sheep other player' questions if they are worth being answered, but not actually being answered.
Fine, I was in tunneling mode at that point yesterday and regret that being a point, I do the same thing.

What exactly is so unclear about my answers?
I clearly explained my vote, and how I saw it. Yes it was based on certain names being switched, and I backed off the moment I realized that mistake. That doesnt make the reasoning flawed.
Again "certain names being switched" it was about a completely different case then I was actually talking about.

You are twisting my words, even just now recently when you said that I accused you of trying to lynch me for misreading/skimming.
Here:

Yeah Unvote and just lynch me for skimming/misreading.
It makes a lot more sense if I don't mess up those names.

I was not twisting your words.

Now for the sake of clarity, if ANYTHING is still unclear to you, spill it out.
I'm good for now I think.

@DD - I'm sold on Storr because while I don't think his role guarantees his alignment, the way he has been handling it has given me a town vibe.

The way he has been handling it is aggressively asserting that he is town. Something I believe mafia would do more than town (although this is Storr we're talking about). He hasn't been under any pressure so I don't see the point in reaffirming in every post "hey guys I'm town btw"... his play should speak for itself.

@IB please listen this time my vote was not taken it was my choice to trade. I could of refused the offer but it was in my mind a good deal that would benefit myself and town 100 % @ streaker I am not sitting behind a soft claim

I finally get what you are saying Mitch but it is day one. By claiming day one you received a power role that will 100% benefit town really only has two outcomes in my mind.

One, you are trying to seem town desperately so someone will save you tonight as no doubt mafia may try targeting you for having a suppossed awesome town power. The better option would have been to keep you mouth shut. But you did soft claiming early on in only other mafia game I ever played with you so guess this is maybe your play style?

Two, you may have gotten an awesome town power. However in my mind that certainly doesn't put me at ease that you may be town. You were able to trade. It is entirely possible you are mafia as they too would have a vote and traded for a seemingly town power. You claim you used it day two and prove it and boom, people buy you as town for rest of game and you stay safe.

Either reason I'm not a fan of. The point is though that you benefit town more(if you are town) by not soft hinting day one to steer a conversation in your direction.

I like this post from Talapus. Very townie analyzing Mitch and laying his thoughts out for everyone.

not interested in dd5 lynch, barking up the wrong tree he is. He put a lot of effort into trying to lynch me which the big thing he has is assuming i got all my day information in 1 pm. As well as assuming it came in on the same day. There is an obvious explanation for why my attitude changed regarding hotshot when it did, and why it was so long in between When i first made comments about hotshots vote steal, and when i claimed to be responsible.

Nobody asked about lynching me, why even mention it? And again he tries to reaffirm himself town (barking up the wrong tree). And Storr why the explanation could be "obvious", it could also be you playing mind games and accusing whoever took the vote as mafia and then going back on it based on timing issues. I also do not like that you apparently didn't know that you have this power to take votes from people in exchange for an ability.

@dd5 comment

Trying to buy more townie cred by letting them have input?

buying town credit or not, would you rather them retain some control over their vote or not? Simply the answer is yes since you seem to think im mafia.
The answer is yes, but (as you said) could be a ploy to buy town cred. I know you are good at this game and it seems like something you would do... that is a compliment btw (but also I get a scummy vibe).

To me the initial exchange seems like something Storr would do to gain town cred and then later he can say that he didn't get a message until later on and now he is confirmed town because of the powers he gave out. This is Storr guys all he does is make bold moves and play mind games.

Save for the part where claiming mod interaction to bolster your cred when you are being deceptive about it is bs. I do have a code that i live up to, and this is not anything that i would pull to try and get a read,or try and gain town credit. Regardless of my alignment this game, what im claiming about the msgs is truth. I don't make up this stuff.

btw dd5
I'm confirmed town, i'm town, im not mafia, and im really truly town. cause my role is fucking cool and charm would love it, and she would love eating vanilla ice cream with me.
Yet again ANOTHER reaffirmation that you are town (and you said confirmed at that). You are not confirmed town in any sense, at least in my book I can't speak for others.

Also dd5, you are not going to get me lynched today, or gain any more information about my role today either. You might get someplace on streaker, but you made your stance on me cool, but you wont get anything more till tomorrow.
More goodies tomorrow if you trade with me Im the mother fucking candy man bitches
That's just like... your opinion man.

not interested in dd5 lynch, barking up the wrong tree he is. He put a lot of effort into trying to lynch me which the big thing he has is assuming i got all my day information in 1 pm. As well as assuming it came in on the same day. There is an obvious explanation for why my attitude changed regarding hotshot when it did, and why it was so long in between When i first made comments about hotshots vote steal, and when i claimed to be responsible.

Apart from proving yourself town, who you wanna lynch?

Apart from having proved myself as town, Virus. We have approached past the half way point of this day phase, and Virus has provided zilch to the game.

Don't mind pressure on many others, but i made list of those I'm not interested in pressuring.

And yet another post saying he has proved himself town. I don't know if anyone else finds these as scummy as I do, but it seems like every single post he says it.

If you want a quick day 2, everyone visit me, it's going to be fun
@wing would I live longer if I claimed 3p?

Again I don't want to lynch dd15 over his push on me

Again, why even bring this up? Nobody has pressured me or pushed me as scum at all. The only time people have talked about me is my activity during the first few days. It doesn't make sense to bring this up unless you're trying to avoid looking like an OMGUS case (which nobody would accuse you of if you didn't say it) or if you want to placate me so I stop pushing at you.

Also on this page (12) Streaker and Storr go into an a nice little back and forth about who to pressure and things they like about people's posts. I'm not saying this is scummy or anything, just a scenario I thought of) but if both my main scum reads (them two) are true and they can talk in BTSC during the day (reasonable because I believe we are allowed to post in game thread during night phase) than they could have planned this to distance themselves for each other in case one is lynched and flips town.

You can say i haven't contributed much but i disagree.
Theres certainly been discussion on my point about mitch.
And streaker by now you ought to know im stubborn about these kind of things. I guess in the same respect i should know you will lynch someone over disagreeing with you.
A few days left. Anyone intersted in getting a claim or are we all just going to say why people arent scum?
Mitch seems the best choice to me but we kinda need to get it together and agree if adaquate pressure is to be applied to someone with enough time to get any info from them.

I've played two games (this is the 2nd) with Endgame, but this seems like a pretty typical post from him.

ALSO, sorry all of my posts are long guys I know it's a pain to read through, just bear through it. Please and thank you

[dd515087]

One more thing from page 12:

I am fine with pressuring Mitch into a claim.

@Wings what do you think about this post considering you and a couple(?) others have already said they got his hint? (I believe HotShot and possibly Mars said they understood, or almost understood, his hint.)

[dd515087]

What is scummy about pushing Mitch to a claim?

Also, just for clarification, Storr, do you know what people get for visiting you?

Because y'all are just pushing for him to claim because "even if he is town I don't think he scumreads quite as well as others" for the most part.

Anyone actually think I should explain my understanding of flavour? I think not. Yes I have a very good idea who Storr and Madmitch are. This I have gained from research. No I dont think I should actually tell you.

Ok, don't tell us. But you seem pretty convinced about things that could go a few ways. You say mitch is not Rand? If he didn't do much research, I can see 2 things in his posts that suggest he might be. You say you know that Storr's role is town? I can think of a case for a 3rd party who corrupts those who take his gifts, and might potentially win when half the vote is controlled. I could potentially see a case for a scum with the role (evil merchant), but I feel like that one is a bit of a stretch. Further, the town character only really gives one kind of item - I'm not sure where this multiple items thing is coming from. For the time being, I'm still leaning town with Storr, and I do think that it's the character I think you think he is.

I dont think he is mafia because of the mechanics of the role and not because of flavour. My understanding fails at third party characters, so I would agree that he could be third party. That said I think we both agree that there is one character who fits perfectly and who is definitely town.

@Storr- claim 3rd party now or dont claim it. I thought you had already claimed town anyway.

There's no reason for a 3rd party to claim unless they are survivor and can win with town. If he is gaining vote power through his ability he is probably not a 3rd party survivor IMO as survivor usually has no ability and has only the goal of surviving until one side wins (as the name implies).

@Talapus obviously I'm not going to allow myself to be lynched. I doubt anyone who would want to vote for me would trade me though. Besides that I might make an executive decision at the end of the day, since I do value lynches happening. So I'd I see people who have votes going no where I'll tell them to move them, or do so myself at the end of the day.

You don't quite have that much sway over the lynch yet And also your mafia partners would be people who would not want to for you and therefore (by your logic) would be willing to trade their voting power.

@ Storr I traded my vote with you fair and square you do not have to leave it on Virus,you can put it any where you want that was the deal

That doesn't get you out of obligation. you will use your vote, or be lynched. You called him scummy, so i put your vote on virus.

You will make accusations, you will formal people, and yes this is me being manipulative mets, because it is for the good of town to make people accountable.

OMG a post of Storr's I actually agree with!

@madmitch he is giving you the option to use your vote as you see fit even though you don't technically control it. This forces you to not lay back and watch the lynch and say "it wasn't my fault" if we happen to mislynch someone. Play the game buddy.

This still doesn't change my stance on Storr and my vote will remain for now. I urge other people to vote for Storr as I believe his claim or his lynch will provide the most information. I know some of y'all have been suspicious of him at some point and others just want to get someone (madmitch) to claim so that we have one.

[Endgame422]

I agree with you dd regarding storr but i think between HS and mitch we will know tomorrow a better extent of his role when they reveal their single use actions.
Definetly agree that noone should visit storr until we know whats up,we can mostly wait as we have 48 hours to send those day actions in.
Also tal being one of the few with no visit ability is odd but not really sure what to make of it.i would be interested in hearing his claim opposed to mitchs to see if it makes sense.i could see it as visits are town orientated,tal is scum and therefore was unsure if he should lie about it or not. Or he could just be some character who cant move/can only be visited.
Did anyone visit tal?

[Streaker]

@dd, what information do you think a Storr lynch would provide us?
He is currently using his votes and his posts to pressure people into activity, which is a town play.

sorry to burst your bubble Virus I did not vote for you,I said if I had a choice I would and one reason is you usually nail me right away so I thought I would to it first, about the vote talk to Storr he has full control of mine and he usually knows who to go after

It's these kind of posts that bother me. If you are town you concede your vote to someone else, and wave all responsibility for it. 'Storr usually knows who to go after' is a rather weak excuse to hide behind. Mitch, do you honestly have Storr as confirmed town in your mind? Otherwise your post makes no sense.

Dislikes the previous post from virus: He excuses Mitch from anything he's done (which is nothing), and says he can live because of his action that he got from Storr.
In the same post, he doubts the role of said Storr.

Something to consider about Storr is that he is possibly lying about having the votes just for 1 day. Before anyone else visites Storr, at least confirm that HS / Mitch have their votes back starting D2.

I like how IB is pushing people. General town read on him.

[dd515087]

@dd, what information do you think a Storr lynch would provide us?
He is currently using his votes and his posts to pressure people into activity, which is a town play.

The same information that any lynch provides us? Based on who he is pushing/defending and who is pushing/defending him we can make more accurate assumptions about them. He is my top choice for a lynch so I think he would provide the most information upon flip.

He is currently 1) constantly trying to tell us that he is town (which I see as scummy for reasons stated many times) 2) using the votes he gained to try and convince people that he is pro-town by letting them control their own votes even though they willingly gave them up (yes I could see this as being a town move, BUT I don't believe his role is town-oriented and if he is town then he should also be pushing his own reads and not only trying to get other people to give theirs) and 3) pressuring people who are active already (he has not done anything to try and get inactives to talk besides putting one of his three votes on me)

Why are you defending him so hard?

[Streaker]

Oh I'm not defending. I'm trying to get my head around that play.
When I asked you about what information, I didn't mean it rhethorical or in any bad way. I am genuinely interested in Storr's power, and that is the issue. A town player probably shouldn't do that. He really is drawing so much attention to himself and acting like the sheriff again. Whilest not pushing his own cases.

I've stated a number of times already that I don't think it's a mafia role, rather 3rd party. And since he's most likely sticking town-sided, and giving some apparently nice powers, I don't see much use in lynching him now. It sounds like I'm defending him, but it just doesn't seem the right lynch.

Which brings me to Mitch. See my previous post for why I think we should pressure him first.