Wait, What? Mafia (9/9) D2: Wait, What?

[kratos644]

Are you calling me the skimmer or spiesr? I didn't skim if you're referring b to me. I know the other person rejected your pr's I was just pointing out there was a second person who I thought made a post about ridiculous pr's. If I was on a computer instead of my phone I'd got back and get the post

[Lootifer]

Also, I just realized something obvious related to Loot's claim (forgive me if someone already pointed this out): suppose there are more than one Vanilla Townie #X (this seems logical, given that Loot was not #1, so there probably is a #1). Then, that logically means there's some sort of mechanism that automatically recruits people to the mafia.

Im not sure of that. Im also not sure of changing mafia as if mafia does completely change then it would be in the best interests of day ones mafia to come out and confirm this (as they would now be town and it would be extremely pro-townn to get this kind of information).

What I think more likely is either James has assumed that mafia will recruit every night (likely they will, theres no real downside that I can think of?) or that they have to use their night ability.

Also Anark, I know we got off to a bad start, but can you please answer my question?

[Anarkistsdream]

Also, I just realized something obvious related to Loot's claim (forgive me if someone already pointed this out): suppose there are more than one Vanilla Townie #X (this seems logical, given that Loot was not #1, so there probably is a #1). Then, that logically means there's some sort of mechanism that automatically recruits people to the mafia.

Im not sure of that. Im also not sure of changing mafia as if mafia does completely change then it would be in the best interests of day ones mafia to come out and confirm this (as they would now be town and it would be extremely pro-townn to get this kind of information).

What I think more likely is either James has assumed that mafia will recruit every night (likely they will, theres no real downside that I can think of?) or that they have to use their night ability.

Also Anark, I know we got off to a bad start, but can you please answer my question?

I am pretty sure I answered anything you asked... Please re-ask.

[Lootifer]

Anarkist: I am starting to think that most of my scum reads on him are simply because of his playstyle; however I have not seen anything that shows he isn't scum. He hasnt really provided a solid defense and his only offense has been aggressively in my direction - since I have been confirmed by two different people who started out as town I presume that Anarks vote will come off me? Also can you answer my earlier question about why you didnt use that PR you used on Jonty on me instead?

That one

Quick question for Loot. In your role pm did it tell you the number that would be in the mafia on day x already or was it a thing where the mod would let you know on day x how many mafia there would be

I was told the numbers on day 1.

[Metsfanmax]

Also, I just realized something obvious related to Loot's claim (forgive me if someone already pointed this out): suppose there are more than one Vanilla Townie #X (this seems logical, given that Loot was not #1, so there probably is a #1). Then, that logically means there's some sort of mechanism that automatically recruits people to the mafia.

Im not sure of that. Im also not sure of changing mafia as if mafia does completely change then it would be in the best interests of day ones mafia to come out and confirm this (as they would now be town and it would be extremely pro-townn to get this kind of information).

No, this hypothesis indicates that the mafia starts with one player and grows every day. The other eight were originally townies (perhaps, assuming no third parties), and we have until D5 until they outnumber us and win automatically, if we do not lynch.

[Lootifer]

That was in response to Anark.

[Metsfanmax]

That was in response to Anark.

I read his post as being consistent with mine -- he was saying that at any time jonty (who he claims is currently town) could at any future date become mafia.

[virus90]

Also, my hypothesis is backed up by James saying this:

To kratos- Communication is open between all anti-town factions (if they exist), assuming each one has more than one member, which they may or May not.. Since I have no way to facilitate communication, if any is going on since some anti-town factions, assuming they exist and have more than one member to communicate with (that'd be kinda sad to send yourself night PM's..), they might have spoken but I wouldn't know or be able to do anything. If they exist, I would have instructed he/she/it/them to keep chatter to night, but they would have been informed if any changes were made to the participants of their faction.

Why would he need to say that if mafia are working together to choose a recruitment target? Sounds like they're being automatically handed recruits.

Also, it's about time to get things going. I just paid closer attention to what happened before I joined, so it's time for me to claim: I'm Vanilla Townie #2. This means I know that on D2 (i.e. today) there are two mafia alive, just as Lootifer's role. This basically contradicts virus90. He has been hinting that he is VT #2 as well:

i came forward with it, not by saying the words "I KNOW ....." but from the beginning i have been hinting mafia recruiter, and just after the first night i confirmed this and underlined 2 mafia.

so i came forward with it, why not in straight answers, well i prefer to plant the seed for an idea and have you come up with it yourself, not looking forward to arguments about things i know that are true and having to convince people who think differently. why not let them convince themselves, saves me the argument. besides like you said yourself. if you have knowledge others might not have you can test if they are right. so another reason for not saying it to explicit.

and well there is no way to know for sure there are now 2 mafia, i am 99% sure, since i cant imagine that the recruiter would choose not to recruit.

I was originally suspicious of him because he jumped on the roleclaim bandwagon after the D2 scene, after kratos and Loot had already claimed. This is too convenient.

So, if you believe me, then we should lynch virus90 unless he comes up with a really good defense.

Unvote
Vote virus90

so please tell me metsfanmax, why did i claim it BEFORE lootifier explained his theory? and i never said i was vanilla towny X. At that point nobody said anything about how many mafia there were, or were going to be there. so why would i say it if i could keep everyone guessing?

Besides, Lootifier? i never got it from your message that anyone else might have gotten the same information you did, like metsfan is now claiming, did you get that message and was it just me misinterpetting or is metsfan using vague descriptions to suit himself a role?

besides:

The reason i voted lootifier was this quote ( I was)

I am a vanilla townie #X*. I was told that on day X* there would be X* mafia alive (X is intentionally the same number I think), I was not allowed to disclose this information until day 2.

How can you know, there are uncertainties right? for instance us killing a mafia. only thing i could imagine is that you know how many mafia where alive day 1, (which you say is 1, to which i agree) but for any other day we could have killed a mafia so how can you deduce it?

answers given later make sense and add up to my intel so unvote

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense to me either -- but isn't that what this game is about? Perhaps James has some weird things thrown in there -- like, town are automatically converted to mafia at a certain point, or mafia automatically die. You have to think outside the box for this game.

you claimed you did not get it and now your miraculously got it and at the same time, being VT 2?

FOS big time your way

[virus90]

well wonder what lootifier has got to say about this that will clear things for me.

[Metsfanmax]

so please tell me metsfanmax, why did i claim it BEFORE lootifier explained his theory? and i never said i was vanilla towny X. At that point nobody said anything about how many mafia there were, or were going to be there. so why would i say it if i could keep everyone guessing?

Loot basically revealed his role at that point; the VT #X claim reinforced it with role PM legitimacy, but more or less the same information is there, if you look back at them. And I am telling you that I'm VT #2, which means there's at least three VT's in this game that know how many mafia there are on a given day (if we trust kratos). If we are to believe that you are not VT #X, then that means that there are some other townies who also happen to know how many mafia there are? No. Our role PM specifically states that we were given this information just to make the VT experience a little more fun. There's no logical reason that other people would also have that information, unless they were mafia.

Besides, Lootifier? i never got it from your message that anyone else might have gotten the same information you did, like metsfan is now claiming, did you get that message and was it just me misinterpetting or is metsfan using vague descriptions to suit himself a role?

Nice job skimming. Loot says he is not VT #1:

I am not vanilla townie #1. My X is some number greater than 1. On day 1 (and maybe even on day 2... or not ) I knew how many scum were going to be in the game at some future point in time.

I came to the same conclusion (about recruiting being unpreventable) and hence why I have been so keen to avoid the daycop being wasted as it could be one of our only chances to win the game.

Anark can you to answer my question? That attack out of the gate on Kratos reads as quite scummy to me.

And then he says part of his motivation in claiming is to find others in the bloc:

I am a vanilla townie #X*. I was told that on day X* there would be X* mafia alive (X is intentionally the same number I think), I was not allowed to disclose this information until day 2.

The reason I was asking for people who had similar information earlier on was an attempt to form a town bloc compromising of VTs - I saw little risk in this because we only had information, not abilities, and therefore popping up and saying they had information would be low risk for town as a whole. It may put a target on our heads, but I figured it was far better to have VTs with targets over their heads than PRs.

This is logical because if you're VT #X > 1 then it stands to reason that there are at least X townies. I mean, James could be screwing with us and having all the VTs be #2 or something, but then presumably Loot would have called me on a fakeclaim, as he said he would. This confirms that Loot's number is >2, and mine is 2, and someone else (kratos, etc.) could be #1.

you claimed you did not get it and now your miraculously got it and at the same time, being VT 2?

FOS big time your way

I was throwing it out there as a possible idea, and then I stopped thinking about the game for a day. I came back and looked closely at my PM, and reread the thread and noticed that thing James said about the faction being "notified" of changes in their membership. This is what made it click.

[gregwolf121]

sorry for the absence, but first in light of mets claim i will unvote the reason i left my vote on loot for so long was because i was unconvinced of his claim, mostly because i felt that he hadn't adequately answered my reasons for voting him, but he has since done so, also mets claim helps me to believe his, on the other hand both mets and lootifer could be the mafia, and this whole vanilla townie X thing an elaborate hoax i throw this idea out there because it occured to me and i thought why not share, but with what i believe hints from others i think its more likely that they are telling the truth.
as to hotshot, not sure how to respond, i feel that i'm playing the same as in other games, actually a bit more active than i have in others.

[Anarkistsdream]

sorry for the absence, but first in light of mets claim i will unvote the reason i left my vote on loot for so long was because i was unconvinced of his claim, mostly because i felt that he hadn't adequately answered my reasons for voting him, but he has since done so, also mets claim helps me to believe his, on the other hand both mets and lootifer could be the mafia, and this whole vanilla townie X thing an elaborate hoax i throw this idea out there because it occured to me and i thought why not share, but with what i believe hints from others i think its more likely that they are telling the truth.
as to hotshot, not sure how to respond, i feel that i'm playing the same as in other games, actually a bit more active than i have in others.

And yet you stoll say so little... either just agreeing with other people or leaving posts like the one above that, while not two sentences, still does not contribite anything to the conversation. Which is what has been happening all game with you... with every game with you

[gregwolf121]

so your saying that i am acting like myself, good to know, i'm glad that i haven't been replaced by an evil space robot, anywho, the biggest thing i've noticed in the last few pages is that basically everybody but mets and virus have ignored mets case against virus so virus from my understanding of mets post his main arguement is that you basically hinted/almost said i know there are 2 mafia today, the question is where are you getting your info from, others have asked this question and i want your answer. if i find it unsatisfactory i'll join mets.
also no im not currently paying to much attention to this game as its thanksgiving and its a time to spend with family

[Anarkistsdream]

so your saying that i am acting like myself, good to know, i'm glad that i haven't been replaced by an evil space robot, anywho, the biggest thing i've noticed in the last few pages is that basically everybody but mets and virus have ignored mets case against virus so virus from my understanding of mets post his main arguement is that you basically hinted/almost said i know there are 2 mafia today, the question is where are you getting your info from, others have asked this question and i want your answer. if i find it unsatisfactory i'll join mets.
also no im not currently paying to much attention to this game as its thanksgiving and its a time to spend with family

This post is unintelligible... too many pronouns and no description... Good lord, could you TRY in these games... you keep signing up and not contributing in any of them...

In any case, greg aside, we still need everybody else to contribute... and a replacement for epic pie

[JamesKer1]

so your saying that i am acting like myself, good to know, i'm glad that i haven't been replaced by an evil space robot, anywho, the biggest thing i've noticed in the last few pages is that basically everybody but mets and virus have ignored mets case against virus so virus from my understanding of mets post his main arguement is that you basically hinted/almost said i know there are 2 mafia today, the question is where are you getting your info from, others have asked this question and i want your answer. if i find it unsatisfactory i'll join mets.
also no im not currently paying to much attention to this game as its thanksgiving and its a time to spend with family

This post is unintelligible... too many pronouns and no description... Good lord, could you TRY in these games... you keep signing up and not contributing in any of them...

In any case, greg aside, we still need everybody else to contribute... and a replacement for epic pie

Vote Nark for skimming... Oh wait, I can't do that. Hotshot is epic's replacement.

I have wifi! But I am still not going to require posting... Nor be as active as I'd like.

[Lootifer]

so your saying that i am acting like myself, good to know, i'm glad that i haven't been replaced by an evil space robot, anywho, the biggest thing i've noticed in the last few pages is that basically everybody but mets and virus have ignored mets case against virus so virus from my understanding of mets post his main arguement is that you basically hinted/almost said i know there are 2 mafia today, the question is where are you getting your info from, others have asked this question and i want your answer.

Actually Nark thats a very good post. As he is exactly right. Just because his english writing skills aren't particularly good, it doesnt mean you cant tease out the useful bits of info (Virus is worse in this respect).

@Greg: I ignored Mets' case on purpose. I wanted to see how Virus would respond, I shouldnt have posted at all but nvm, mistake on my part (I didnt want to post because I am not 100% on mets' claim). And to me he has responded inline with how he's been responding all game.

However I have had a FOS on Virus since the start, I just havent said as much because I wanted to watch his behaviour a bit more; I kept flip flopping on his alignment.

Mets theory on a Anark/Jonty scum team does sound interesting though; if only because Anark has yet to give me a reason why he didnt use that ability on me, his prime suspect for most of the game.

Im kind of running out of people to suspect.
- Jonty: Anark says hes town - if anark is town, presumably so is Jonty
- Anark: Most mf my scummy reads comes from his playstyle, thou there seems to be some scummyness on top of this, but then theres also townyness to counter it... The game would have to be proper messed up for him to be our recruiter, but it is possible
- Virus: Scummy, but consistant in his information, hasnt made any slips so the reality is we stand a reasonable chance of a mislynch if we lynch Virus; though I will get on the wagon if its a choice between Virus and no lynch
- Greg: Not sure. Bit of a wagon follower so that counts as a black mark
- Kratos: Not our recruiter (could have been recruited)
- Spiesr: Not our recruiter (could have been recruited)
- Hotshot: Nothing so far.
- Mets: Claim seems solid, but something about his strategy smells funny. Not sold.
- ME! Im fucking awesome!

[Anarkistsdream]

Best self eval ever, Loot! Hahaha

[Anarkistsdream]

Loot... You keep posting that I have been "after you all game." But I just read to page 12 or 13 and I voted Virus and Jonty, but only FOSed you, while you, by that time, had already voted me...

So, I would like you to quit trying to use that as an argument now about "Why I didn't use it on you." I had already voted Jonty, have already defended that vote, and used my power on him because I was more curious about him...

I don't know when you think I started hounding you all the time, but please realize it was after day two started, so your assumptions are misconstrued and incorrect, and it makes my vote even that much more on you.

[Lootifer]

Loot... You keep posting that I have been "after you all game." But I just read to page 12 or 13 and I voted Virus and Jonty, but only FOSed you, while you, by that time, had already voted me...

So, I would like you to quit trying to use that as an argument now about "Why I didn't use it on you." I had already voted Jonty, have already defended that vote, and used my power on him because I was more curious about him...

I don't know when you think I started hounding you all the time, but please realize it was after day two started,

I was only asking; and while its more aggressive than I would have expected (something to be read into that?) you have answered my question. Thanks.

so your assumptions are misconstrued and incorrect, and it makes my vote even that much more on you.

Jeepers for me to be the recruiter/original/day 1 mafia the game would have to be way more messed up than anyone suspects AND (more importantly) I would have to be a far better player than you are giving me credit for (I have convinced everyone but you in this fantasy scenario). The fact that I know I am not the recruiter you steadfastly stick on me seems very odd.

With that said some questions for everyone (feel free to call it a diversion or whatever Nark, but i'd still like to hear your answers):

- What do you think of Mets' claim?
- What do you think of Mets' case on Virus?
- What do you think about Virus holding information but not coming out and explaining it or claiming?
- How do you think we should handle the Spiesr flavoured wine in front of us all?
- How do you think the game/recruitment process works?

[Anarkistsdream]

Not a diversion at all... I feel those are very valid questions. For later, if not now...

By the way... I LOVE playing with you Loot. You kill me, man... You used Jeepers, and it sounded natural... I would love to hear everyone's voice when I read their posts, and your voice in my head is hilarious... I have to be up early for work tomorrow, though, so I am out of here for the evening. I will post on your queries in the morning.

Oh... And, I guess your logic is finally inescapable...

Unvote

[Metsfanmax]

At this point there's lots of information and ideas, but little certainty. I think it's time for the daycop. I see three main targets:

- Nark
- virus90
- Mets

If the daycop investigates me, it would probably clear both me and Loot, and likely Kratos. But I don't think that's a great use of the weapon.

[virus90]

well i will tell you how i know, because my role made me able to ask a question about the game mechanics. and at that night with no intel around about numbers i though it was most relevant to know how many mafia there were... turns out that others already knew that but where not able to talk about it.
and to add to my role i was only allowed to ask about mechanics, i was not allowed to ask anything related to a player. so thought that information was most essential.
bit shitty, especially since my sharing knowledge gives me more problems then some others keeping there pie-hole shut.

why is epic pie/hotshot not on your list mets?

[Metsfanmax]

@kratos: I had the same/similar ability, i knew about the recruiter, but was not able to say anything before the first night. So people: There is a mafia recruiter. Like i hinted many times before. We dont have a dead guy, that means either the doc saved spiesr, (if we have doc, and if we think the mafia would have killed spiesr) or more likely to my opinion, the recruiter chose to recruit someone instead of killing someone. if he recruited there are now 2 mafia

This doesn't quite add up. kratos said that he could confirm there was 1 mafia on day 1 (i.e., he is VT #1) and you said you have the same or a similar ability. Obviously his ability was different than yours, which involved asking a question about game mechanics. He could not have asked that question prior to D1, and even if he had asked that question on N1, your case implies that you assumed that he also had a similar question-asking ability and decided to ask how many mafia there were on D1. Very unlikely. It looked to me like you were softclaiming VT #2.

Now, you say that you knew about the recruiter (how you came by that information is a separate story). That might explain your D1 comments. However, it doesn't fully explain why you'd use your N1 action to ask how many mafia there are.

why is epic pie/hotshot not on your list mets?

*shrug* Didn't get a mafia tell from the few posts that they have had.

[jonty125]

Town. Can't remember why vote is so unvote.

[Anarkistsdream]

At this point there's lots of information and ideas, but little certainty. I think it's time for the daycop. I see three main targets:

- Nark
- virus90
- Mets

If the daycop investigates me, it would probably clear both me and Loot, and likely Kratos. But I don't think that's a great use of the weapon.

Well, it certainly wouldn't do any good to waste it on me... Maybe after another night goes by, to make sure I didn't get recruited, but nobody should think I am scummy right now, in my eyes.

Personally I would use it on Virus or Kratos... Kratos has been laying very, very low, even before the holiday. He also has info that doesn't "jive" with others' info... That to me, makes him very suspicious... If two people's info doesn't jive, then that means one of them is a liar, and why should it automatically be considered the other person and not him?

Now, on to these questions
- What do you think of Mets' claim?
Time will tell is all I can say.

- What do you think of Mets' case on Virus?
I think we must not forget that there are two sides ot every argument, and we should look at more than just Virus in this instance.

- What do you think about Virus holding information but not coming out and explaining it or claiming?
He's either a sneaky son of a bitch or worried that the info would get him lynched. Since we assume the mafia won't be killing at night, holding back any information is only going to hurt your influence with town, so I see it as a bad thing.

- How do you think we should handle the Spiesr flavoured wine in front of us all?
I don't drink wine...

- How do you think the game/recruitment process works?
No idea.