[Endgame] Firefly Mafia

[DoomYoshi]

I wasn't skimming but I don't know an accurate count either. We can all tell that it wasn't nearly enough to force a roleclaim. Further, there is the added point that there was no defense for his earlier actions.

[ShaggyDan]

So I decide to sleep in and we had a quick claim under little pressure...

As much as you defended it there shaggy that was a relevant point just made about you not knowing the count. You can't know if it was a quick claim unless you know the count which is another reason not to skim.

As I said before I wasn't sure if he had left over votes from something I'd missed, it was obviously a quick-claim because there was very little discussion before it. I didn't want to accidentally hammer or put him at L-1. I've been in situations with games before where something like this has popped up and someone has made the mistake of acting quickly before it can be discussed. I just wanted to be 100% sure I wasn't doing that.

I will however vote now as multiple people have assured me he's nowhere near it.

Vote Anarkistsdream

[Talapus]

Ok, I'm not sure voting him is the way to go yet. My only two thoughts on a claim such as that is that Cobb is third party(Don't really see making that role scum) or he is town. Either way I think it's a strong possibility his alligence is tied to money as he was a merc all throughout the show. So it's entirely possible someone out there has the ability to control what he says and when he says it as he is no more then a glorified gun for hire. i certainly didn't see any major reason to claim though and anark usually waits until the noose has at least tightened before going off like that and claiming. i guess a third possibility could be he's a body gaurd though and has to step up and out himself once his client is in a certain amount of danger. Again though, not sure.

[ShaggyDan]

A possibility: Nark is 3rd party with a win condition where he has to kill Jayne, and was hoping to get Jayne to out himself. Though this would only make sense if he was Mason'd or had a daykill ability. The only character I can think of that fits this is his partner that was imprisoned in the episode Jaynestown.

I dunno, I personally don't believe the claim because there was no reason to do it. I definitely am interested to hear more from Nark about it. However, that combined with the fact that the role claimed may not be alligned with town is enough for me to keep my vote on him when we're close to a deadline (May 14th? or have I gotten confused with another game).

[strike wolf]

While Jayne Cobb is a bit of an ambiguous role...I don't think third party works well with the set up as if he isn't town I think we probably have a shortage of townies. I'm not sure what possessed nark to claim but I find it highly unlikely that Cobb is a body guard. There is another person who would fit that role better vig is most likely but I guess we can't rule out PGO. As far as going where the money is. He joked once with Mal about the money never being good enough to make him leave but he's always been fairly loyal to Mal directly, just not so much other members of the crew...particularly one or two of them. He is probably worth keeping an eye on but I do not think we should lynch him just because his role is a bit ambiguous.

[Anarkistsdream]

What got me to claim? That is the question of the day, is it not?

Well, to be totally honest, the case made against me was fairly accurate. I have been waffling and flip-flopping and I really don't know anything about the show, so I have no idea how to fight back in this game. People are using character information to make assumptions and I think that is going to get the town into a lot of trouble.

That being said, I'm not revealing my role, just my role name... I will guarantee that I am town, but I have a pretty crappy role, so not terribly useful to the game.

How Shaggy didn't bother to just go back a page or two and see what I was at is a bit odd, but better err on the side of caution than jump the gun... When people do that, they get a big target on their head, no matter the outcome... Right, Yoshi?

I agree Streaker... I probably should be hung. I'm sidetracked on this game considerably.

[naxus]

Anark, Theres something fishy with you.

[Anarkistsdream]

Anark, Theres something fishy with you.

[Commander9]

I really don't have a lot time, but while I quickly skimmed, I saw Jayne claiming. I'll definitely reread after my finals and graduation, but I'd just likely to bring up again what I've already said.

As few others stated, I don't really see any possibilities for such a role in such a game. The only remote possibility I can see would be reavers, but I highly doubt that.

Cult is unlikely (though I guess one could make an argument for the reavers). No role really fits. Though the show definitely has the potential of several win conditions.

Jayne as lyncher seems a bit far fetched to me. I think there are other roles that fit better for him a couple have already been interested and the others who were looking for him were always more interested in retrieving his psychotic mind reading sister.

I was just throwing a suggestion. As far as Jayne goes - his alignment is very ambiguous. That's one role that I'd definitely would not turn my back on.

Personally, from seeing Nark's posts and this role, I'm calling BS and I'm 80% that he is NOT a friend of a town (3rd party at best).

[Streaker]

There is indeed something about nark. I've seen him play in other games, and I believe he's experienced enough to not mess up this bad.

I think we should be carefull about investigating him...
As he said, it's better if we lynch him. We don't wanna jump the gun

[VioIet]

I believe saf was saying the game was going nowhere since there were two, thus far unfruitful shouting matches. Between nag/fircoal and Vio/Iliad. Vio's case seemed almost incoherent, but she then admitted she was getting games crossed. However, the intention of her anger still seems misplaced. Is it perhaps Iliad's signature that is annoying you Vio?

Yes, yes it is

Vio - As of right now I'm not sure what to think about you. At the start of the game you made an argument and seemed to be contributing and then got mixed up with arguing with iliad which seemed more then anything, just a distraction. You've focused on it quite a bit in fact when no others are really giving it much thought and you haven't put much else out there since.

I don't think your statement is quite true- that others were not paying any attention to me and Illiad. Here is why:

Fairly decent case on Illy, but I'm going to stick with my current vote as I think it has more basis.

Seems vio spent about as much time excusing her absence as she did making the case. It did a bit incoherent at points but a couple good points on iliad. Overall I have to agree with safari though as it did seem to be a bit of a miscommunication. I highly doubt that sheep thought he was hammering though...the post count was the same page only a few posts back.

Naxus and Iliad are by far the best two targets.

Sheep is just a psycho.

Unfortunately, I just don't know which one of the two is a better target. I really liked Commander's points in the last few pages, but Violet makes a good point now.

Something just doesn't seem right with naxus, he's usually not this combative. Iliad's case is interesting, but he's not been particularly active either, so I think waiting on pressuring him should be ok.

Vio's case, which many people are praising, is that according to her neither the joking vote stage was that funny, which is a matter of opinion and I thought it was fairly fun, and that I didn't participate in it, which is untrue, and that means I could not have possible enjoyed the joke vote stage if I hadn't posted, which regardless is also untrue.

And Violet, that's actually a good case against Iliad.

There were more, but that was the majority of them.

I am still relatively new to all this, and i like to practice making cases. I had an inner feeling about Illiad, and i received encouragement and constructive criticism. So I continued my case, on and on.

In my experience, you started off on the right foot and played the part of a concerned town member which is always a great way to get conversations rolling. Though I fail to see the importance with continuing this bickering with iliad when it's not solving anything. The points iliad brought forward against you were valid observations or at least enough to merit notice. However for all the discussing you are doing with him back and forth I fail to see you bring much else to the table for the rest of us to discuss. You only really made one more point about another player while once again letting us know your discussion with iliad is "on hold" because hes away and busy with finals. You think you've cleared yourself and explained your actions satisfactorily enough, so why keep responding to him when no one else gives the argument between you two much merit. In my experience, players with a role to hide are the only ones truly concerned about the half cocked notions of another player. So tell me this, why aren't you scum?

I am not scum, because the mod gave me a town role.

I brought up comments about naxus, sheep, fir, streaker, commander, and strike. Maybe more. It is possible that they easily got overlooked due to me mostly talking about Illiad. But my point is that I did talk about the current happenings in the thread, while making my case.
If i have a feeling that someone is scummy, why should I not pursue the case?

You say it was a distraction, and it wasn't helping promote town discussion. But after all the discussion about naxus, fir, shaggy, saf/anark- where are we now?
As saf said himself, it will be an interesting case to look at more on Day 2. I think I am promoting a lot of discussion. I think reactions are important. That is another reason why I pursued Illiad. Something about his immediate responses seemed out of character.

I actually backed up a bit- as he defended himself well, raised some points to make me look bad, and i started to run out of things to say about him. I also realized that I was confusing threads- so a lot of the things I was saying, didn't always apply to this game. So I was silent for awhile, and I haven't really been able to come up with many new things since.

I also made a small case against sheep, but it wasn't popular, and many people disagreed. So I didn't pursue anymore, after some time.

In general it sucks coming into the game when I did as most of the strong arguments have been currently resolved. I would really like a hear from a few more players a bit more as it will hellp keep the discussions going. But for now I'm going to Vote: Violet as her play style in general is very suspicious. I see no need to continue bickering with iliad(Who can be extremely argumentative anyway) when no one else seems to care. That and the fact that you have to remind us your "discussion" with him isn't over yet seems a very deliberate distraction.

Not a distraction- but just trying to draw attention to the fact.

[strike wolf]

Vio I don't think too many were really questioning your initial argument as much as subsequent attempts to ignite it further and you have been fairly one minded about it.

As far as nark...I have serious concerns with lynching a character I believe to be town in nature so at this point I do not wish to pursue this lynch. On the other hand he has noted himself that he has a small role and does not mind being lynched (for the record I do not think the set up fits for jester) and we are nearing the dead line...

[Anarkistsdream]

Vio I don't think too many were really questioning your initial argument as much as subsequent attempts to ignite it further and you have been fairly one minded about it.

As far as nark...I have serious concerns with lynching a character I believe to be town in nature so at this point I do not wish to pursue this lynch. On the other hand he has noted himself that he has a small role and does not mind being lynched (for the record I do not think the set up fits for jester) and we are nearing the dead line...

Since I have kind of bumbled this game up and down, I would not mind even having to vote for myself if necessary.

However, I swear on my wife's love for me that I am town in this game, so unless you want to guarantee a townie lynch, you may wish to look elsewhere.

[Talapus]

Vio - As of right now I'm not sure what to think about you. At the start of the game you made an argument and seemed to be contributing and then got mixed up with arguing with iliad which seemed more then anything, just a distraction. You've focused on it quite a bit in fact when no others are really giving it much thought and you haven't put much else out there since.

I don't think your statement is quite true- that others were not paying any attention to me and Illiad. Here is why:

First off, I said "much thought" not "any". Big difference especially considering that several people find it hard to ignore the "discussion" you have been having with iliad. So to go and then prove something by finding all the times others have talked about it is rather a waste as we are all very aware the "discussion" is still on going between you two. This matters mainly because in a few things you've posted throughout the game you seem to take things out of context or look harder for things that may or may not be there. When there are other times where you "know" something yet don't persue it.

I am still relatively new to all this, and i like to practice making cases. I had an inner feeling about Illiad, and I received encouragement and constructive criticism. So I continued my case, on and on.

And I get this I really do. However much of your case is based on the fact of the joke voting stage comment iliad made here:

It does look like Naxus tried to prove his town status and jumped at the opportunity.

Regardless strike wasn't in any danger, and neither did sheeps vote put him in any. It would've been nice if the joke votes continued, but I guess we're through on the other side now.

From that comment you get rather sidetracked and seem to make assumptions as to how iliad feels as a player instead of what was written and then try to convince the rest of us. In your post you said:

For someone who says that the joke vote stage was so much fun, you surely weren't an active participant in it. I just re-read the whole thread, and I didn't see any joke votes that popped out at me- that were composed by you. And I didn't even think the joke vote stage in this game was funny. I think you are normally a very articulate player. If you truly meant that you were just going to miss the joke vote phase, because you thought it was so hilarious- i think you would have phrased the wording in your post better. Fir called you out on it first, and saf said it was miscommunication- but i don't think so.

Unless you have psychic abilities the rest of us don't posess I find it difficult to to buy this as completely truthful or a groundbreaking argument. So yes when I later call your continual "discussion" with him a distraction I really mean it. Because honestly basing it entirely off mispercieved quotes is not the way to go.

In my experience, you started off on the right foot and played the part of a concerned town member which is always a great way to get conversations rolling. Though I fail to see the importance with continuing this bickering with iliad when it's not solving anything. The points iliad brought forward against you were valid observations or at least enough to merit notice. However for all the discussing you are doing with him back and forth I fail to see you bring much else to the table for the rest of us to discuss. You only really made one more point about another player while once again letting us know your discussion with iliad is "on hold" because hes away and busy with finals. You think you've cleared yourself and explained your actions satisfactorily enough, so why keep responding to him when no one else gives the argument between you two much merit. In my experience, players with a role to hide are the only ones truly concerned about the half cocked notions of another player. So tell me this, why aren't you scum?

I am not scum, because the mod gave me a town role.

REALLY, I mean REALLY?!?!?! Ummm, would the scum in this game please raise their hands? What, no takers......shocker . I'm sorry Vioiet but for someone who likes to discuss things that is one lame reason to fall back on. If you can make several page discussion out of something you get a "gut feeling" about and then make one quick blanket statment such as the one above and expect me to buy it, then you will be disappointed. Sorry, nice try though.

I brought up comments about naxus, sheep, fir, streaker, commander, and strike. Maybe more. It is possible that they easily got overlooked due to me mostly talking about Illiad. But my point is that I did talk about the current happenings in the thread, while making my case.
If i have a feeling that someone is scummy, why should I not pursue the case?

I COMPLETELY agree with this, and this is one of the reasons I have a problem with you at the moment. You are basing your vote on iliad and discussing it at length(And apparently will continue to do so when he returns). Mainly because you saw things in his post that quite honestly are'nt entirely there and a "gut feeling". Yet you have a strong "gut feeling" on sheep and then later say:

"I will keep my vote on Illiad until I have a reason to take it off.

And Sheep, you totally wanted to HAMMER!! I just know it!!!"

So please explain to me how you are more convinced that iliad is scum and you want your vote staying on him yet you claim to know sheep wanted to hammer during a time when it could have made a difference in a townie dying. You claim you know he was "eager" to do it. So please explain why a player making a scummy move like possibly hammering a possible townie, and you being so sure thats exactly what he did, is less scummy then iliad's two sentence post. Because honestly, I'm at a loss. You like to discuss things, well then come on and discuss. Because from your play style that I've seen so far, and the facts or conceptions that you have thus far in the game, they all point to sheep being more scummy then iliad yet you refuse to drop your vote for him and go for sheep.

You say it was a distraction, and it wasn't helping promote town discussion. But after all the discussion about naxus, fir, shaggy, saf/anark- where are we now?

Ummm, you made three earlier posts about sheep going from how you thought his actions seemed scummy to the fact that you "know" he wanted to hammer. Yet you completely ignore this as a discussion topic and fail to mention it......interesting.

As saf said himself, it will be an interesting case to look at more on Day 2. I think I am promoting a lot of discussion. I think reactions are important. That is another reason why I pursued Illiad. Something about his immediate responses seemed out of character.

I actually backed up a bit- as he defended himself well, raised some points to make me look bad, and i started to run out of things to say about him. I also realized that I was confusing threads- so a lot of the things I was saying, didn't always apply to this game. So I was silent for awhile, and I haven't really been able to come up with many new things since.

I also made a small case against sheep, but it wasn't popular, and many people disagreed. So I didn't pursue anymore, after some time.

Ummm, hate to say it but your's and iliad's "discussion" isn't hugely popular either. And from your own posts throughout the game you have the same "gut feeling" on sheep as iliad. Only difference is that you"know" he wanted to hammer. In any game that move is scummy and as a mafia player you know it. Just because this discussion isn't popular doesn;t mean it shouldn't be persued. Besides, in the course of three posts you get more and more convinced of sheep's scummy actions, yet don't discuss any of it at length. Instead you focus on a reaction from iliad and improvise your own thoughts and interpretations on something that may or may not be there. Yet when a player makes an out right scum move you ignore it even though you "know" it and keep going after iliad.

So, whats your angle? Something here is wrong and the fervent pursuit of iliad is starting to reek of desperation, half truths, and phishing for info that I don't see. So yes, lets discuss this. Why in the world are you so bent on him when sheep is obviously the scummier according to your posts? And don't give me the "it's wasn't popular argument" because thats BS unless a game is at a stalemate. Hell, I'd make a case everyday arguing about mandy's or fircoal's scum ties if I believed it popluar or not.

In general it sucks coming into the game when I did as most of the strong arguments have been currently resolved. I would really like a hear from a few more players a bit more as it will hellp keep the discussions going. But for now I'm going to Vote: Violet as her play style in general is very suspicious. I see no need to continue bickering with iliad(Who can be extremely argumentative anyway) when no one else seems to care. That and the fact that you have to remind us your "discussion" with him isn't over yet seems a very deliberate distraction.

Not a distraction- but just trying to draw attention to the fact.

So yes, a distraction.

[safariguy5]

So what do we want to do with the Nark case? Name and possible town alignment enough for now?

Good lord, we're moving onto what might be the fourth claim today... Is nobody else concerned for the town's well being right now?

[Talapus]

For now I'd say nark is in the clear unless someone wants to counter claim. I find it hard to see that role as scum. 3rd party is possible, but scum no. But we can address it on a later game day should suspicions again arise.

[strike wolf]

Id raise my hand to that safari...tal made some great points on vio and I pretty much agree full-heartedly to that much. However whether to pursue or not is a completely different situation and as it stands now i feel a bit torn.

[safariguy5]

Id raise my hand to that safari...tal made some great points on vio and I pretty much agree full-heartedly to that much. However whether to pursue or not is a completely different situation and as it stands now i feel a bit torn.

Yeah I'm a bit concerned about possible shades of Albarezzi. At the same time, we have a roleblocker, a doctor, and some sort of townie outed already, it feels like we're playing russian roulette a bit at this point.

[strike wolf]

The way I see at this point we continue discussing. Keep the day going and the conversation flowing. However we hold off on making people claim just yet...the way I see it we have room to protect two townies...maybe three I do not feel we can afford to add a fourth claim to that list...naxus should be the focus of protection and someone needs to watch his and fircoals back if nark feels that his role is crappy than possibly he should be left alone. Any forth claim would tip this balance and create a conundrum for night one.

[ShaggyDan]

Since I have kind of bumbled this game up and down, I would not mind even having to vote for myself if necessary.

However, I swear on my wife's love for me that I am town in this game, so unless you want to guarantee a townie lynch, you may wish to look elsewhere.

There is something about this post in particular that rubs me the wrong way.

"I'm town but vote for me anyway. Hell, I'll even vote for me."

I can't quite fathom why you would say this if you were indeed town. We have the slim-possibility of a jester? Maybe even just a day 1 jester? But I find this unlikely (and can't think of any character in the show that would fit this). Other than that I can't think of any reason you would claim and advocate your own lynch. Maybe something good happens for town when you get killed? Maybe Jayne gets to kill someone when he gets lynched? Maybe he's got an extra life and he wants to prove his role? I'll admit though, most of these are farfetched.

Another possibility is that his role has some kind of connection with Jayne and his fakeclaiming? Or Jayne has a specific connection with a scum role (possibly be recruited by the blue-hands to kill Simon/River)? It may be very possible that Jayne has an alt wincon that allows him to be hired by someone and thought he might have a better chance outing himself and achieving that instead?

Honestly, the quote above, plus the fact the claim was done very oddly plus the slim chance the character claimed may not be a town role plus the fact a deadline is 3 days away plusthe fact we have a lot of claims already plus the fact he wants us to vote for him makes it enough for me to keep my vote on him.

The way I see at this point we continue discussing. Keep the day going and the conversation flowing. However we hold off on making people claim just yet...the way I see it we have room to protect two townies...maybe three I do not feel we can afford to add a fourth claim to that list...naxus should be the focus of protection and someone needs to watch his and fircoals back if nark feels that his role is crappy than possibly he should be left alone. Any forth claim would tip this balance and create a conundrum for night one.

I would normally agree with just wanting to keep discussion flowing and such, but we have a deadline in 3 days. It's going to be difficult to put together a definitive case espescially if we're being careful with cases to not bring forward claims. If we decide to keep discussion going chances are we're going to end up at a no-lynch (especially if that discussion is geared towards not having claims come out).

[DoomYoshi]

Another possible motive you left out is that he is a bomb or something similar.

[strike wolf]

Well to be honest I m thinking 4 claimed townies would be worse than a no lynch. So the way I see it we either lynch a probable townie or we don't lynch and honestly I could support a nark lynch if it comes down to it however I will not support a lynch on anyone else unless the evidence is close to overwhelming.

[ShaggyDan]

Also I'm not ruling out the possibility of scum being given fakeclaims. With 9 central characters on the ship that one would assume to be town (except for possibly River (possible insane cop?) and Jayne (possible recruitable / merc?)) it makes it fairly easy for claims to go un-countered and have 9 definitive townies. That's 9/16 characters that could claim, be unclaimed and be confirmed as townies, makes it a little tricky for scum to have any wiggle room. It would make sense to take 1 or 2 members of the main crew out and give them to scum for fakeclaims. If there's no fakeclaims what's to stop a mass-claim day 1 and then lynch between the remaining 6 that aren't on board Serenity? With a possible vig shooting at night, and investigative roles the game could be over by Day 3. Then again, this is all set-up speculation which (in my opinion) holds little weight to the actual game.

I'm not saying I don't believe any of the claims so far, I'm just saying I don't trust them 100%.

Finally, what other cases do we pursue? The only other major lead I see is a case on Violet and I personally don't think we'll be able to get enough information for a lynch on her over the next 3 days, the way that's been brought up I imagine it will take a fair bit of back and forth to come to a conclusion (not saying she's pro or anti town, just that the case would take time).

[strike wolf]

I would find it highly risky for a town bomb to advertise his own lynch. It would be quite a gamble to hope that it would be a mafia member that hammers. Too much of a gamble for day 1. Unless you feel he could be a "smart bomb" either one I don't think is likely.

Edit before post: not to mention that it would still be quite a gamble even if he could pick his target as there is a not a good chance that he would pick the right target on day one information.

[Anarkistsdream]

I am NOT a bomb, and would certainly not suggest lynching me if I were... The probability of mafia being the last to vote is low...

Shaggy, however, won't take a vote off of me even when EVERYONE else says it makes sense? That, I don't understand.