[Official] Futurama Mafia Town Wins! PCM wins Premium

[AndyDufresne]

Ah yes, I must've skipped over his self-vote.


--Andy

[/]

An odd turn around? You do realize we were a couple days away from the end of the day with only one weak lead. Honestly at that point it didn't really matter what the case was for it just mattered that we got some information out of it. We all know I stress the need to lynch and this is no different. No I don't think Sax's case was a good case but I do believe that we needed a lynch, or really at that point something from Sax. Just getting nothing would be a waste even more of what was already a big waste.

the next and last post by fircoal shows him once again not directly involved as per his "non-voter" play, but insinuating the need to speedlynch gilligan.

In light of what Haggis said unvote.

Unfortunately, time is of an essence now and I fear a speed lynch on Gilligan will bring us bad results in light of his most recent comments.

Then what do you suggest we do. the only two options I see is speed lynch Gilligan or give up and no lynch

I feel fir seems just a bit too enthusiastic of cheering on lynches he "doesn't support".
Vote fircoal

I never said that. I said those were my only two options, never said which I preferred. I mean do you see any other options at the time? I wasn't even the first to bring up either of them. You case is really weak.

.... hmm, I think it should be quite obvious which you preferred. Don't try to claim indifference to the outcome.
I still see some contradiction, you stress the importance of getting things done, but refuse to attach your name or effort into said task, the reason why this seems like a scummy move is because it insinuates one who doesn't want the suspicion of the outcome to fall upon their own heads, but does want a player lynched.
I have played enough games with you to realize that you are indeed rarely a voter, however in this case I see you actively pointing out the actions others should take, and as you blatantly claim to point out as a defense, you claim to have been trying to
A. Point out the obvious
B. Repeat popular opinion
C. Express no new information, presumably just to seem active

As you say it's not a very strong case, but as with anything at this stage it's a work in progress...

[freezie]

Most of the times, the best cases come out from the weaker ones. Since nobody seems to find Gilligan's actions as scummy as I think he is..

Unvote

Vote: Fircoal

[pancakemix]

.... hmm, I think it should be quite obvious which you preferred. Don't try to claim indifference to the outcome.
I still see some contradiction, you stress the importance of getting things done, but refuse to attach your name or effort into said task, the reason why this seems like a scummy move is because it insinuates one who doesn't want the suspicion of the outcome to fall upon their own heads, but does want a player lynched.
I have played enough games with you to realize that you are indeed rarely a voter, however in this case I see you actively pointing out the actions others should take, and as you blatantly claim to point out as a defense, you claim to have been trying to
A. Point out the obvious
B. Repeat popular opinion
C. Express no new information, presumably just to seem active

As you say it's not a very strong case, but as with anything at this stage it's a work in progress...

Again, I'm taking the sarcasm route and saying you're reading way too much into the speedlynch comment.

Nothing to add, you say? No, I don't think anyone did. Anyways, you should speak for yourself on that count. Your last relevant post of Day 1 is asking people whether or not they want to stand by their joke votes (to which, I might add, Fircoal responded to).

Most of the times, the best cases come out from the weaker ones. Since nobody seems to find Gilligan's actions as scummy as I think he is..

Unvote

Vote: Fircoal

Read: Shameless bandwagon.

Vote Freezie

[Metsfanmax]

I still don't understand how Fircoal acting differently than he normally does gives us any clues as to his alignment.

[freezie]

Most of the times, the best cases come out from the weaker ones. Since nobody seems to find Gilligan's actions as scummy as I think he is..

Unvote

Vote: Fircoal

Read: Shameless bandwagon.

Vote Freezie

Read: Defending fircoal.

See it as bandwagonning if you want. But, correct me if I am wrong, trying to tell everyone over and over that Gilli is scummier will get me lynched a lot faster XD

[strike wolf]

I still don't understand how Fircoal acting differently than he normally does gives us any clues as to his alignment.

Acting differently can mean different motivation playing. Different motivation playing could mean alternate win condition.

[pancakemix]

Read: Defending fircoal.

See it as bandwagonning if you want. But, correct me if I am wrong, trying to tell everyone over and over that Gilli is scummier will get me lynched a lot faster XD

And? It's a piss-poor case and / admitted it. I'd rather point that out than jump on board because I think no one agrees with me.

You're wrong. Doesn't make Gilligan more or less scummier, but you're wrong. In fact, if forced to pick between the two I'd go with Gil over Chu as he's done something scummy and admitted to it.

[drunkmonkey]

Freezie may be willing to let the case die, but I'm not sold that he's clean yet. I came in as a replacement, so I had 10+ full pages to catch up on. I made sure to read every one completely before thinking of voicing my opinion, let alone casting a vote. To think you had read enough and continue to vote for a lynch, knowing you did not have all the information from the thread, seems very scummy.

The best I can say at this point is have a cop check me, but you don't want to lynch me.

This was said not long after Haggis asked for a cop to check him. Knowing the cop already had a person to consider, could this be a bluff?

Also, it seems I'm still being targeted. I have no issue giving away my info.

As far as why you should keep me, I'll chalk it up to a better late-game role.

One post claims no issue giving away info, yet the posts before and after are intentionally vague. This strikes me as odd.

[Fircoal]

An odd turn around? You do realize we were a couple days away from the end of the day with only one weak lead. Honestly at that point it didn't really matter what the case was for it just mattered that we got some information out of it. We all know I stress the need to lynch and this is no different. No I don't think Sax's case was a good case but I do believe that we needed a lynch, or really at that point something from Sax. Just getting nothing would be a waste even more of what was already a big waste.

the next and last post by fircoal shows him once again not directly involved as per his "non-voter" play, but insinuating the need to speedlynch gilligan.

In light of what Haggis said unvote.

Unfortunately, time is of an essence now and I fear a speed lynch on Gilligan will bring us bad results in light of his most recent comments.

Then what do you suggest we do. the only two options I see is speed lynch Gilligan or give up and no lynch

I feel fir seems just a bit too enthusiastic of cheering on lynches he "doesn't support".
Vote fircoal

I never said that. I said those were my only two options, never said which I preferred. I mean do you see any other options at the time? I wasn't even the first to bring up either of them. You case is really weak.

.... hmm, I think it should be quite obvious which you preferred. Don't try to claim indifference to the outcome.
I still see some contradiction, you stress the importance of getting things done, but refuse to attach your name or effort into said task, the reason why this seems like a scummy move is because it insinuates one who doesn't want the suspicion of the outcome to fall upon their own heads, but does want a player lynched.
I have played enough games with you to realize that you are indeed rarely a voter, however in this case I see you actively pointing out the actions others should take, and as you blatantly claim to point out as a defense, you claim to have been trying to
A. Point out the obvious
B. Repeat popular opinion
C. Express no new information, presumably just to seem active

As you say it's not a very strong case, but as with anything at this stage it's a work in progress...

I never claimed indifference either. You're the one who claiming me to pick something.

As for not putting in effort I'll admit I've been lazy but hey it's not like most in this game have been any better.

I repeat popular opinion? I believe the idea that the Sax case was stupid wasn't popular opinion. Just because I have to go with popular opinion in order to get a lynch, doesn't mean I believe in said popular opinion.

I can agree with that. I think Gilligan is the better case than I am.

[AndyDufresne]

Looking at voting patterns, I'm going to throw a FOS on Freezie.

show

Based on his voting, and his descriptions of why he is voting, it really sounds like he is just looking to vote, usually jumping onto a case that seems like it could be gaining momentum.

As for these two items---pancakemix's vote and freezie's vote:

show

It could see Freezie's point about seeing the vote on on Freezie as a 'protection of Fircoal. But I can also see this as a move to direct heat away from yourself onto the target you just put up for a vote.


--Andy

[Gilligan]

Freezie may be willing to let the case die, but I'm not sold that he's clean yet. I came in as a replacement, so I had 10+ full pages to catch up on. I made sure to read every one completely before thinking of voicing my opinion, let alone casting a vote. To think you had read enough and continue to vote for a lynch, knowing you did not have all the information from the thread, seems very scummy.

The best I can say at this point is have a cop check me, but you don't want to lynch me.

This was said not long after Haggis asked for a cop to check him. Knowing the cop already had a person to consider, could this be a bluff?

What's wrong with the cop having two people to consider? He can check whoever he thinks is scummier, the end.

Also, it seems I'm still being targeted. I have no issue giving away my info.

As far as why you should keep me, I'll chalk it up to a better late-game role.

One post claims no issue giving away info, yet the posts before and after are intentionally vague. This strikes me as odd.

No one has asked for any info. Spilling the beans just cause is silly.

[safariguy5]

QOTD:

Dr. Zoidberg: Now Fry, it's been a few years since medical school, so remind me. Disemboweling in your species: fatal or non-fatal?
Fry: Fatal.
Dr. Zoidberg: [hands Bender a wad of dollar bills] Large bet on myself in round one.


Vote Count

Gilligan(1)- drunk
Fircoal(2)- /, naxus, freezie
freezie(1)- pcm

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

[safariguy5]

QOTD:

Zapp Brannigan: The key to victory is discipline, and that means a well made bed. You will practice until you can make your bed in your sleep.
Fry: You mean while I'm sleeping in it?
Zapp Brannigan: You won't have time for sleeping, soldier, not with all the bed making you'll be doing.


Vote Count

Gilligan(1)- drunk
Fircoal(2)- /, naxus, freezie
freezie(1)- pcm

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

I'll give everyone a pass this time as it's weekend, but if activity doesn't pick up soon, I'll put in a deadline.

[strike wolf]

Yeah sorry I've been around but just a bit too busy and tired to post anything intelligent sounding. I'm not sure if I buy the case on freezie or not...still rereading.

[Commander9]

Yeah sorry I've been around but just a bit too busy and tired to post anything intelligent sounding. I'm not sure if I buy the case on freezie or not...still rereading.

What he said. Been somewhat busy this weekend and really didn't have enough time to post a coherent analysis.

[strike wolf]

So having read through everything. I think out of the cases presented so far, Freezie is the most interesting. I don't make much out of the arguments by themselves but what I find interesting is that he didn't even put the effort into the Gilligan case, he presented it, went radio silent for a few days and then pops back in saying that he felt people didn't seem to find it scummy and moved onto the next case without even really trying to reinforce any of the points he had made about the argument in the beginning. I can understand not wanting to debate an unpopular case that never gains steam but I think there is a difference between not overdoing it on a case and not defending it at all. It seems to me that he didn't really care about the case in and of itself, he just wanted to present something that was the likely bandwagon anyways but not actually put the effort into making it stick. I also honestly don't like the the best cases come from weaker ones statement. Does this mean we should ignore serious scum tells than?

Some other things I want to point out is Naxus:

Deadline is 11 days, guys.. We do need to start some sort of activity here if we don't want a very rushed lynched which may bring rather unwanted results.

How about we pressure Kwan?

Unvote, Vote Kwan

How about we pressure Kwan?

Unvote, Vote Kwan

Reasons behind it?

Why not? Need activity, usually means that we need to pressure someone to get info

Honestly I had thought this was a joke when he first mentioned it (a sarcastic reply to Comm asking for more activity) but he seems to be suggesting that we go for a completely random target without even suggesting any possible inactivity reasons. This really makes me think he does not care about what the reason, he just wants a target. This does not seem like a townie train of thought to me.

Unvote, vote TSL

Might as well pressure him until he shows up

Just jumping on the inactive bandwagon not much real reasoning needed to do it, so doesn't really require much reasoning to defend it.

I agree with com9 here. He's around, keep the pressure up.

@ Safari, what happens at deadline?

Weekends ok for being lax on activity. But TSL is a mod and I can assume he's on at least once a day. That and why waste a few pages trying to change targets when we can just leave the pressure on till we get some sort of answer

This reasoning is just weak. Commander at least had reason to say he believed Sax was active, that he saw a post in a private forum (I still say one post isn't enough to proclaim activity but I'm not getting into the com9 situation right now) and a couple of PMs, but Naxus had nothing to go on but an assumption that saxlad is on every day because he is a mod. This isn't necessarily true and the facts show that even if sax was on every day he wasn't on the public forums every day and he definitely wasn't any more active in any of his other mafia games so these statements were based on fallacious reasoning. Either naxus wanted the sax wagon to look stronger than it was or he didn't bother checking to see if the claim that sax was active was true. So why state it like it was matter of fact?

Either way we need to get a lynch here or we will be just waiting for a cop to investigate tomorrow. Which if the cop investigates haggis or TSL and comes up Innocent then we will waste another day

While I do agree that at this point a lynch needs to be reached, at the point in the day this happened it was no longer realistic and a rushed lynch with that little time left would have quite likely been worse. Most likely lynched town with probable power role dying and with how quick it would have had to have been there wouldn't me much to gather from the lynch itself. Naxus here doesn't even suggest who we should lynch it just seems like he wants to suggest that we do lynch someone without directly connecting himself to making the decision on the quick lynch.

So is Gilligan going to be the focus of day 2 because of his SaxLad actions?

=====

Also, I feel like we've still a few players who aren't posting very much, so much that I just went to the first page to check again who all was playing.


--Andy

FOS Andy. The majority of his posts are like this. Fairly non-commital and expressing little opinion on the actual scum tells. He appears to just be going with the flow.

But thats andy, he does that anywhere he posts

I'm not gonna make this into him defending andy because basing it on this one post would be extremely weak. but I will say it's a continuation on Naxus' apparent lack of putting himself directly in front of the gun while trying to appear active and attentive.

Having been a victim of Fir relentless cases, this seems strange.

Unvote(If needed) Vote Fircoal

Let's just jump on the newest case. I don't really want to discuss if it actually seems scummy beyond comparing it to a one time incident in another thread but i will jump on the case.

In conclusion, FOS Freezie and Naxus

As far as the gilligan and fircoal cases. The reasoning is accurate but not really enough to warrant much attention from me. I'll keep an FOS on Gilligan as that case was legitimate but while I understand the logic with the fircoal case and believe it to be accurate it seems too weak to warrant a bandwagon on.

[kwanton]

Alright, I can get behind strike's case on naxus. It's the strongest one posted so far today. Naxus seemed way too eager to try and feed the fire for quick lynch bandwagons and kept bringing up deadline as pressure. Normally I wouldn't this type of play especially scummy, except for the fact that it was day 1. In all honesty naxus could have really been trying to do the town thing and trying to lynch for info (like Gilligan said before about using a mislynch) but it really isn't super-important to lynch someone day 1. I know that suggesting no lynch day 1 is a big no-no here but in my opinion pushing so hard for a random lynch is just as bad (yesterday there was no serious wagon. All of it was random IMO). Mislynches may give us information but its really not worth it if there isn't any real suspicion on the wagon target. Pushing a wagon like this on days 2-4 depending on the size of the game is better, because you have more reads on the wagon target, but on day 1 its like flipping a coin (you can argue that wagons always have some reasoning behind them, but when going on reasons like inactivity or voting patters during the RVS day 1 its completely random and saying it isn't is kinda BS lol).

But there's really no point in me reiterating strike's post. I think his case against naxus is good so I'll just go into the other cases presented today.

As for the other cases, the one on fircoal is extremely weak. I don't think his actions were particulary weird for him. Like I said, day 1 is different from every other day and from what I've seen fircoal usually doesn't get too into day 1 random voting. He's definitely let things slide before in other game's day 1s, however he is much more dedicated to his cases later into the game. He's neutral at best for me.

The case on freezie is better and is the second strongest after the one on naxus. Its basically the same as the one on naxus but not as strong. Freezie was very passive about jumping bandwagons and he wasnt pushing as hard as nax was so if I had to choose between the two, strike's case on nax is that much stronger. Freezie leaning slightly scum to me.

Case on gilligan is also pretty eh. He admitted to skimming and thats bad sure but is there any real way for us to know if he's telling the truth about that? .I'd rather reach a lynch based on tells and vote patterns than something Gill said that could be WIFOM.The other point brought up against him is that he said he had no problem giving up his role but was being vague about it in related posts. I'm completely with Gilligan on this one. He's expressed that he's a power role and he isn't willing to give up free info to everyone unless he needs to, which is a townie train of thought. Again that's WIFOM tho so I can't make too much out of it but his actions haven't struck me as scummy. My read on Gilligan is neutral/slightly town.

In fact, FOS on drunkmonkey/sax for implying that he should claim with such little pressure on him (I say little pressure because it's not appropriate to claim unless you're around lynch-3 or lynch-2 when scum/3rd party together could push a weak wagon straight to a lynch.)

vote naxus

[kwanton]

EBWOP: the word "find" should be put in between "wouldn't" and "this" in the third line:

"normally I wouldn't find this....

[Fircoal]

I like the naxus case. I would like to hear more from it. However I will state it may be a bit of a false lead. In other games Naxus has said scummy statement after scummy statement and yet was town. So I think we have to be extra careful considering who it is.

[AndyDufresne]

Does anyone have any insight on strategies the mafia may be employing? I was thinking about this yesterday, and wondering if a part of them agreed to be the 'lay-low' type, and the other part agreed to be the 'active townie' sort of player, or if they put all their bananas in on basket.


--Andy

[kwanton]

Does anyone have any insight on strategies the mafia may be employing? I was thinking about this yesterday, and wondering if a part of them agreed to be the 'lay-low' type, and the other part agreed to be the 'active townie' sort of player, or if they put all their bananas in on basket.


--Andy

One problem with this Andy: Yesterday was day 1 and scum can't talk to each other or coordinate like that before day 1 unless theres a night 0 usually. But it is a good train of thought and something we should keep an eye on for future days.

[safariguy5]

QOTD:

Dr. Zoidberg: Now Fry, it's been a few years since medical school, so remind me. Disemboweling in your species: fatal or non-fatal?
Fry: Fatal.
Dr. Zoidberg: [hands Bender a wad of dollar bills] Large bet on myself in round one.


Vote Count

Gilligan(1)- drunk
Fircoal(2)- /, naxus, freezie
freezie(1)- pcm
naxus(1)- kwan

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Also, jonty is replacing BGthe Brain.

[strike wolf]

I like the naxus case. I would like to hear more from it. However I will state it may be a bit of a false lead. In other games Naxus has said scummy statement after scummy statement and yet was town. So I think we have to be extra careful considering who it is.

I know very well who I am dealing with. Naxus playing style is a bit against the norm which is the only reason he doesn't already have my vote. I do find it relevant though for two reasons.

A. I feel the scum tells I have brought up are legitimate.
B. i don't feel we should let scummy play pass just because the person has a play style that might be hard to figure out. We should be careful in pursuing these cases as I have been trying to. Yet at the same time, there is the fact that even eccentric players have tells. For instance in this case naxus. He is always a fan of the day 1 lynch but in my experience with him he tends to be more lynch happy day 1 when he is scum. I feel that fits into how he acted day 1.

I would say it's too early to really determine that. Day 1 mafia are generally going to be less in sync...they'll all be playing their own style unless they know each other and have played with each other as scum enough to know the best way to play off of each others' playing styles (very few people have been playing that long for that to happen, two of them who might died night 1 and some of the others aren't even in this game). *wifom alert* The fact that nag died night 1 may mean their strategy at night is to target experienced non-mafia players but even by stating that in thread they may now change up their strategy to better fit the style in which they want to play. *end wifom alert* That being said I would rather you focus your efforts on cases and analysis andy. To come in here not even comment on the current cases and then present an argument that will naturally be full of wifom seems at best a distraction from legitimate arguments taking place within the thread.

[kwanton]

That being said I would rather you focus your efforts on cases and analysis andy. To come in here not even comment on the current cases and then present an argument that will naturally be full of wifom seems at best a distraction from legitimate arguments taking place within the thread.

I'm all for andy or whoever else bringing up a case if they think there's real suspicion. Even though there was a pretty big logical flaw in andy's case, it can still provide us with reads. In fact, as far as I'm concerned people's cases on other's are far more useful for me for getting tells than the cases themselves. In other words, I will analyze the way people pursue their leads to find scum so it doesn't matter how strong the lead is. And let's not forget andy also brought up the case against freezie which is one of the better ones so far this game after the case on naxus.

So far, the way that people have been presenting their suspicions and following their leads, leads me to think that:

strike: leaning town
andy: leaning town
sax/drunk: leaning slightly scum
freezie: leaning scum
naxus: probable scum

I have neutral reads on everyone else. (FYI: Leaning doesnt mean I'm sure of it. Just slightly more one way then the other. strike and andy aren't completely off the hook yet.)