INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[pershy]

oh boy, there's a lot of literature here. Catching up....

I am probably the smallest fresh water fish in this game.The last Tokie game didn't have players that could talk with each other at night which makes me believe it was a possible test for this scenario.Players will probably have a personal objective (mine last game was to be on the lynch count of a certain player to be lynched,,which was ragian).

But this isn't a Tokle game. In fact it probably has very little in common.

I quite like that TX AG made a case, it was against chapcrap and seemed like a legit effort to make some headway to me. I still think it's too early to tell much about anything that is going on...

[pershy]

I found where jfm says he's an angel fish but I can't find an actual claim apart from that. Has he given one?

[pershy]

no, I don't think he has

vote jfm

I think we will get an extension of 48 hours but we need a claim and a lynch. If your claim is sufficiently good jfm then we might still have time to pressure chaps but probably not.

We need a lynch either way on D1 for information.
sorry nothing personal from me either.

[dakky21]

I will switch to Pershy (if people agree) after his hiatus of 5 days without posting and then 3 posts in a row saying nothing. He wants a claim from JFM... if you ask me, too much scummy.

JFM is on L-1 so I will

UNVOTE

[Metsfanmax]

aage's vote is already on chapcrap and he has said it's his top choice. Realistically it's the only other lynch candidate for today. Since I think we should lynch and I am not a fan of the case on jfm, the only thing I can say is that I hope people accept that he's not full claiming and also accept that he has not done enough to warrant a lynch. And then they can move on to the next choice.

My other candidate is Pershy and he didn't post for 5 days. How can I move to the next choice and what good will it bring? D1 without a lynch? And you were so supportive of the D1 lynch...

At this point there's cases against myself and chap that have at least some chance of doing something. I support a D1 lynch as I said but I'm not usually going to intentionally vote for someone just to make a lynch happen if I don't see the case for them being scum (and I don't with jfm).

I mean you want people to get off jfm because "he is not full claiming" ?! Don't understand the logic there.

No, I didn't say that. I am saying that there is no more point in applying additional pressure to jfm, so either we lynch him or we don't, but if we're going to lynch him, the fact that people made a gambit for a full claim and it failed is not in itself a reason to lynch someone. Thinking that a player is scum is a reason to lynch them.

Not claiming while two away from a lynch with no reason given or concrete case against another is enough to warrant a lynch by itself.

No, thinking that a player is scum is the only reason to warrant a lynch. Especially with someone who is relatively inexperienced like jfm seems to be, you can't necessarily hold them going against convention as an indicator of alignment. e.g. mitch

My top choice seems to not be the town's top choice. The case on chapcrap seems to have little traction, the case on you might.

This is a remarkable reversal from the stance you took barely 24 hours ago. Throwing your vote on me and then hoping the case gets traction doesn't sound much like "shit or get off the pot." If you're going to make a case on me, do it, or else risk looking like a total hypocrite after calling people out for not actually digging into the content of any other cases.

Same goes for Ragian -- care to make an actual case other than "I misrepresented your words" several times?

[dakky21]

No, I didn't say that. I am saying that there is no more point in applying additional pressure to jfm, so either we lynch him or we don't, but if we're going to lynch him, the fact that people made a gambit for a full claim and it failed is not in itself a reason to lynch someone. Thinking that a player is scum is a reason to lynch them.

I think JFM could be scum, I don't think he IS scum. This game is based on assumptions (and slips etc.) so I don't see your point here.

I unvoted him just to prevent quick hammer as we have few days ahead, but that doesn't change my mind... JFM or/and Pershy are scum.

[Pikanchion]

Not claiming while two away from a lynch with no reason given or concrete case against another is enough to warrant a lynch by itself.

No, thinking that a player is scum is the only reason to warrant a lynch.

Yes, and refusing to claim in this situation is one of the clearest possible indications that somebody is scum.

[aage]

My top choice seems to not be the town's top choice. The case on chapcrap seems to have little traction, the case on you might.

This is a remarkable reversal from the stance you took barely 24 hours ago. Throwing your vote on me and then hoping the case gets traction doesn't sound much like "shit or get off the pot." If you're going to make a case on me, do it, or else risk looking like a total hypocrite after calling people out for not actually digging into the content of any other cases.

Same goes for Ragian -- care to make an actual case other than "I misrepresented your words" several times?

I wholeheartedly disagree. I hope the rest can see the false equivalence here as well. I've already dug into the content of the case on chap, and explicitly expressed interest in going after either him or several others, which included Mets. The fact that I've switched my vote doesn't change my thoughts about chap, we're simply on a clock here and I'd prefer to get something done instead of staring myself blind on one player. I'd even go so far as to say I'd be a hypocrite if I wasn't willing to change my vote.
In fact, I would urge others to do the same - I would prefer for some of the jfm wagoners to take their vote someplace it will do us some good.

fp by dakky and pika, not much to add there. Stop staring, guys.

[Metsfanmax]

I think JFM could be scum, I don't think he IS scum.

Obviously. My point is that there isn't even a valid reason presented why he could be scum.

I unvoted him just to prevent quick hammer as we have few days ahead, but that doesn't change my mind... JFM or/and Pershy are scum.

Uh huh. jfm's scummy for not claiming, and pershy is scummy for thinking he should claim? This is amusingly self-contradictory. If jfm's being scummy, and pershy agrees he should do what exactly? Abstain from voting because he took a break from posting?

Yes, and refusing to claim in this situation is one of the clearest possible indications that somebody is scum.

I don't agree, for the reason I stated: it's only alignment indicative if the player in question cares about (or understands) the commonly accepted meta. If you got me to L-2 and I didn't claim, you should sure as hell lynch me. It's much harder to make that case for someone like jfm.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I hope the rest can see the false equivalence here as well. I've already dug into the content of the case on chap, and explicitly expressed interest in going after either him or several others, which included Mets. The fact that I've switched my vote doesn't change my thoughts about chap, we're simply on a clock here and I'd prefer to get something done instead of staring myself blind on one player. I'd even go so far as to say I'd be a hypocrite if I wasn't willing to change my vote.
In fact, I would urge others to do the same - I would prefer for some of the jfm wagoners to take their vote someplace it will do us some good.

The hypocrisy is not in changing your vote to a wagon that has a chance of succeeding. The hypocrisy is in not helping that wagon to succeed other than with your vote, because as you say, the fabled pro town hero is unlikely to be arriving any time soon.

I'd like to have another look at Mets - even though we share the view that this wagon is bad, the way he goes about showing it is not effective (and therefore kinda scummy) because he only pokes small holes in it one small post at a time without giving an alternative.

Have a look at me then. But recall that we've played enough games together that you know that this is just my style and is not very alignment indicative. I've never been much of a case-maker, as town or as scum. I mostly just point out what's wrong with other people's arguments, and sometimes that lands me scum.

[dakky21]

I think JFM could be scum, I don't think he IS scum.

Obviously. My point is that there isn't even a valid reason presented why he could be scum.

I unvoted him just to prevent quick hammer as we have few days ahead, but that doesn't change my mind... JFM or/and Pershy are scum.

Uh huh. jfm's scummy for not claiming, and pershy is scummy for thinking he should claim? This is amusingly self-contradictory. If jfm's being scummy, and pershy agrees he should do what exactly? Abstain from voting because he took a break from posting?

First, I said a lot of reasons why jfm could be scum and second - no one takes a break of 5 days unless they are scummarining.

Just to confirm - I will hammer JFM or Pershy but probably no one else. That's my gut speaking and my gut says I could believe JFM because I was noob once and I have that feeling that he slipped but is not lying, AND I have a feeling Pershy slipped with the "shark" thing and is scum.

[Skoffin]

Can anyone comment on blacky, seriusface and pershy and how many games they may have played? I'd like a gauge on where they fall on the line of "absolute new player" and "should know better".

Blacky voted jm nearing the end seemlingly just to get it over with, however the other two are more concerning - both came seemingly out of nowhere to finally do something meaningful, only to throw a vote to end jm without much input on their put. It just does not seem genuine to me.
Jm on the other hand - has he played before that anyone can comment on? All of his actions have been scummy, and the way he delayed with his flavour could be construed as a scum stalling to find a claim. He's acting out classic scumtells that anyone else would have been rekt for already; so again, scum or mitch. I'd like to hear any comments about these players before I delve further into them.

@skoffin, you have a job? I had you pegged as a welfare junkie

You fookin wut?

[Sirius Kase]

My vote has been sitting on jfm for awhile now and we got a little info out of him, probably all we are going to get. If he's scum, I should leave my vote on him, but his performance under pressure, he'd seemed more nervous than scummy. I was considering moving my vote to Pershy for being absent for so long, but then he spoke up.

This is my absolute first mafia game, so I'm evaluating the reasoning of you more experienced. I don't bandwagon just to avoid thinking. It's not very original, but I'm trying to figure out who is smart and who can be trusted.

I really want to put some pressure on someone else, so I'll be ready, as soon as I see a good argument.

unvote

I'm also trying to figure out what I did to look scummy to some people here. I don't want to get lynched just because I made a noobie mistake. I'm posting more than Pershy, so I guess I can set my vote on him for now. It's easy to move if someone makes a better case for someone else.

vote Pershy

I think there are still a couple who haven't voted. Should we hold that against them? I can't even remember who they are so can't vote for them anyway.

[Sirius Kase]

Darin44, that's the guy I keep forgetting. Since he's not around anyway, I'll move my vote to him. Pershy showed up and he made some interesting comments.

unvote, vote Darin44

[ZaBeast]

Can Darin be replaced/prodded? He seems to be lapsing back to being inactive again. Not that he really contributed at any point in this game.
P.S. Is there a "message to the mods" color?

[Sirius Kase]

Can Darin be replaced/prodded? He seems to be lapsing back to being inactive again. Not that he really contributed at any point in this game.
P.S. Is there a "message to the mods" color?

You could PM them. But, I'd expect them to be paying attention to the game thread. You could pick any off color that might catch an eye.

[Ragian]

Quick from phone: Yes, mets, I think it's scummy that you repeatedly put words in my mouth because you were unhappy with the way I posted my thought process, or whatever bugged you about my use of modal verbs.

@skoffin, Pershy is experienced like I'm experienced. I think it's very scummy that he chimed in after five days just to put jmf at L-1. I know he's been busy IRL (much like Skoffin), but he ought to know better.

@Sirius, it seems sort of scummy that you throw your vote around like a teenage boy at prom. We lynched darin in the DBD game that has just ended because he seemed to be scumarining, but he was very much town.

[BuJaber]

You guys need more proof that jfm is town?

People are appearing from the abyss to vote him, restating old and previously refuted arguments to support their votes

[pershy]

I unvoted him just to prevent quick hammer as we have few days ahead, but that doesn't change my mind... JFM or/and Pershy are scum.

and how is that supposed to work exactly? And how are you so sure? how can we both be scum. You don't think it's possible we are both town?
These kind of remarks on D1 are scummy. IGMEOY!

[pershy]

You guys need more proof that jfm is town?

People are appearing from the abyss to vote him, restating old and previously refuted arguments to support their votes

how is that proof he is town?
The whole point anyway is that it is in town's favour to have a lynch on D1. It's unlikely we will hit scum but we will have more info to go on on D2.

[pershy]

[color=#FF0000] Can anyone comment on blacky, seriusface and pershy and how many games they may have played? I'd like a gauge on where they fall on the line of "absolute new player" and "should know better".

I have been playing mafia for about 8 years.

FFS why does everyone keep going on about me being absent? I wasn't absent, I was reading the thread and trying to keep up but working 12 hour days and not have a lot to say.

I still think we have very little to go on and it's only D1. We should stop bickering and agree on a group direction. D1 - we need a claim or 2 and a lynch. We don't want to go to D2 without a lynch in a game of this size. If necessary I'm sure we could ask for another day or 2 extra for extension.

JFM happened to be the one with the votes. He is not cooperating and not claiming at L-2 as is usually the agreed consensus. That means we can change our focus to someone else which also vindicates his lack of cooperation which is not cool and loses that whole momentum.
Or we could lynch him and get information that way.

If you think we have time to get a claim from someone else I'm all for it, let's start voting. Chap or someone else with votes could be a candidate. Some of you are saying me cause I was absent?!?!? Erm ok. This is a big game and many people have not contributed much - mafia is probably coasting along nicely.

But jfm needs to claim! Or give us something.

Or if you wanna vote me and get me to claim or someone else then let's do it. (I wouldn't recommend voting me obviously, but seriously, just don't)

[pershy]

personally I would want to vote Dakky and pressure him.
Just putting that out there.

[Tobikera]

Pershy is usually much smoother and accommodating than what I have seen since he reappeared and started posting again. Also, without much basis, he immediately take jfm10 to L-1. This is atypical pershy play from my experience with him in about 10-12 games. Most of these recent posts appear to be smoke and are defensive for him. Yes, I think we should have another claim, and I think it should be pershy. IF I was voting for a lynch, it would be him rather than jfm10.

UNVOTE
VOTE Pershy

[TX AG 90]

You guys need more proof that jfm is town?

People are appearing from the abyss to vote him, restating old and previously refuted arguments to support their votes

how is that proof he is town?
The whole point anyway is that it is in town's favour to have a lynch on D1. It's unlikely we will hit scum but we will have more info to go on on D2.

OK,

More rookie mentoring needed again.

Can someone please explain to me why it is in town's favor to lynch on D1? I keep hearing it's because we get more information, but aren't we only getting information on the person we lynched? They're now gone, how does that help?

I'm sure there is a more nuanced reason, but I'll need help understanding it.

Also, wouldn't it be more beneficial to discuss what our night actions could be. I'm talking about in a general sense, not asking everyone to claim. But since, jfm has claimed a "protective role", if we don't lynch jfm, shouldn't he be guided on who to protect? Can he protect himself at night?

[TX AG 90]

chapcrap has been silent for a couple of days.

You'd think someone who's name keeps coming up as a lynching prospect would do more to clear his name. Is he afraid of tripping up?

Is he keeping his head down, hoping the momentum on jfm carries him to a lynching and he survives to D2?

[dakky21]

More rookie mentoring needed again.

Can someone please explain to me why it is in town's favor to lynch on D1? I keep hearing it's because we get more information, but aren't we only getting information on the person we lynched? They're now gone, how does that help?

I'm sure there is a more nuanced reason, but I'll need help understanding it.

Also, wouldn't it be more beneficial to discuss what our night actions could be. I'm talking about in a general sense, not asking everyone to claim. But since, jfm has claimed a "protective role", if we don't lynch jfm, shouldn't he be guided on who to protect? Can he protect himself at night?

Generally on all days, not only D1, voting patterns are the information you get from lynches. So you can see who was on the wagon, how quickly did they join it, did it turn good or bad, who unvoted and who voted and for what reason... who hammered and why etc.

jfm's soft claim and later not willing to fully claim is scummy as it is, as he is afraid to claim for example a Doctor because he knows he could be counter claimed and therefore scum. So speaking of the night actions in general sense is bad unless you mean to fully claim.