Civilization Mafia - Town Victory!

[TimWoodbury]

Precisely Rage.

Fircoal is scum. Tim is scum. Dakky might be. Samlen might be. Benga is not. Ga7 is not.

if im skum take 2mins and make a case on me you know making a case on me is jsut as easy as making a case on mitch so pull 1 out of your ass and see in the end im not skum

[TimWoodbury]

sorry benga im not buying that claim early claim and claiming something only another 3rd party can verify sounds skummy to meunvote vote benga

PS to mod why in the world on the VC it say im a enchaner im confused there

didn't you confirm as some kind of wizard?

i confirmed as dark magician that has nothing to do with why it says (Tim the Enchanter) for my vote. its a legit question as noone else has anything next to theres

[aage]

Uncultured barbarian.



Vote wing

[Fircoal]

Whom does killing a 3rd party benefit D1? Town or scum? I'd think scum since town starts all over tomorrow without any real information apart from Benga's flip. It doesn't give too much intel on who is scum as I see it. I mean, what do we do tomorrow?

I don't think so. Think about it this way, what do survivors look like to scum? While scum are able to know who is scum and who isn't, they have no idea what the roles of the people who aren't scum are. Thusly to them they are going to assume that a survivor is a town member. The way they act will be affected with that in mind, not with the idea that Benga is a survivor. So in theory it should be able to tell us just as much as a town lynch since both the town and scum would be playing it the same way. However it comes with the benefit of lynching survivor instead of town. So it does come with information.

That said the thing that need to be accounted for is the missed lynch opportunity (that is the extra chance that we could have had to lynch scum). Which is a bit the main reason it's not just a net good for town. I'd probably say it's more of a toss up, a push. Scum are happy that one of their own didn't die while town are alright that their numbers are still mostly intact while they get some information.

Of course this is if the player lynched is a survivor.

The thing is Banga made it weird by claiming what he was very early on. The thing is, unless you think it's 80%+ likely that he's a survivor there's no reason not to vote for him. There isn't really much of a loss with a survivor death, while there is a great gain with a scum death. So there isn't really much risk.

[Minister Masket]

sorry benga im not buying that claim early claim and claiming something only another 3rd party can verify sounds skummy to meunvote vote benga

PS to mod why in the world on the VC it say im a enchaner im confused there

didn't you confirm as some kind of wizard?

i confirmed as dark magician that has nothing to do with why it says (Tim the Enchanter) for my vote. its a legit question as noone else has anything next to theres

See aage's post. It's actually his fault entirely because he has a John Cleese avatar, so whether I see your name I just think of that scene. Blame him if you must.

[Ragian]

So who's scum voting for Benga?

[ga7]

I dunno about the doc thing, it's a scummy thing to point out but that I could see as a noob move also. The rest, not so much.

So you are content with the concept of there being a doc D1?

I honestly dunno why you consider benga & me to not be scum when he didn't see the point and I hadn't answered yet but whatever, don't want to give scum too much info either.
I was thinking in general fwiw, pointing out a possible doc claim is scummy even though it was clearly an erroneous claim

okay my time to claim I guess
I am minor civilization Celts , I win the game solely by surviving till the end
It doesn't matter which side wins

That does fit well within your behaviour so far but it could also be a good fake claim. I would think city state for instance would fit better as survivor than "minor civ" but I only read the wiki so people that played the games could answer this: what makes it a minor civ? Are there civs that are not playable and only exist as NPCs?
In any case, while as Fir puts it there's not much risk involved in lynching a survivor, it would give us way less useful info IMO... Well, we still have some time. I'm on the fence for now.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

I dunno about the doc thing, it's a scummy thing to point out but that I could see as a noob move also. The rest, not so much.

So you are content with the concept of there being a doc D1?

I honestly dunno why you consider benga & me to not be scum when he didn't see the point and I hadn't answered yet but whatever, don't want to give scum too much info either.
I was thinking in general fwiw, pointing out a possible doc claim is scummy even though it was clearly an erroneous claim

Well if thats what you say, and you see no connection between yourself and Benga.... and are happy to leave your vote on Benga..... then no I take back my comments. You must be scum. You lack basic understanding of the game, with no reasonable excuse for ignorance.

Waffle

So which is it Fircoal? Is it a good thing or a bad thing to vote for a survivor? You are waving all over the fence here.

if im skum take 2mins and make a case on me you know making a case on me is jsut as easy as making a case on mitch so pull 1 out of your ass and see in the end im not skum

It would be exceptionally difficult to build a case against Mitch right now.

@Aage. LOL

[strike wolf]

This isnt kindergarten.

OoG type comment: So first off wing, please back off. I get you are upset with Nag but a. While he's mostly ignored it and continued playing without attacking you, you have spent more time whining about and insulting Nag than you have to actually playing. B. I was in the game too where this started and while you both said things, you were being the bigger ass.

In all honesty I should have said this after your comment at the top of page 10. If you really feel so offended by Nag, I suggest you find a way to settle it outside of this game thread because I really don't want to hear it any more.

Back to game related talk:

Whom does killing a 3rd party benefit D1? Town or scum? I'd think scum since town starts all over tomorrow without any real information apart from Benga's flip. It doesn't give too much intel on who is scum as I see it. I mean, what do we do tomorrow?

Precisely Rage.

Fircoal is scum. Tim is scum. Dakky might be. Samlen might be. Benga is not. Ga7 is not.

I'm really not convinced. I don't like Chu's latest post which seems to spend way too much time on explaining the benefits of a potential third party lynch bUT to me, Benga's claim appears very weak as Celts didn't even come up the first two times I searched through Civ6 info (only came up when I specifically searched for Civ + Celts and then only with Civ5) and to me he seems too aggressive in defending someone (especially when not appearing to make much effort to search for alternatives) for someone who's only objective is to survive.

We agree on Dakky and Sam though I tend to agree on Ga's read on Sam backing off his statement before he was actually officially called out on it making it seem more like a legitimate misread. I disagree on Tim. I could be convinced otherwise as his behavior is a bit off but I thought it was off in pokemon too and in this game while I won't state what it was as it has to do with role pms, he did say one thing that makes me lean towards him being town.

I am not here to hold your hand. Either you understand why i asked those questions, and why i am not concerned anymore. Or you dont.

This isnt kindergarten.

Well frankly considering that Ga7 hasn't posted between the comment you questioned and when you said he isn't town that suggests you backtracked so asking why you backtracked is a legitimate question or would you prefer that we assume that you were asking for show purposes?

Whom does killing a 3rd party benefit D1? Town or scum? I'd think scum since town starts all over tomorrow without any real information apart from Benga's flip. It doesn't give too much intel on who is scum as I see it. I mean, what do we do tomorrow?

I don't think so. Think about it this way, what do survivors look like to scum? While scum are able to know who is scum and who isn't, they have no idea what the roles of the people who aren't scum are. Thusly to them they are going to assume that a survivor is a town member. The way they act will be affected with that in mind, not with the idea that Benga is a survivor. So in theory it should be able to tell us just as much as a town lynch since both the town and scum would be playing it the same way. However it comes with the benefit of lynching survivor instead of town. So it does come with information.

That said the thing that need to be accounted for is the missed lynch opportunity (that is the extra chance that we could have had to lynch scum). Which is a bit the main reason it's not just a net good for town. I'd probably say it's more of a toss up, a push. Scum are happy that one of their own didn't die while town are alright that their numbers are still mostly intact while they get some information.

Of course this is if the player lynched is a survivor.

The thing is Banga made it weird by claiming what he was very early on. The thing is, unless you think it's 80%+ likely that he's a survivor there's no reason not to vote for him. There isn't really much of a loss with a survivor death, while there is a great gain with a scum death. So there isn't really much risk.

I touched on this briefly earlier in the post but to iterate more clearly: This seems like a lot of justification for why it's okay to lynch a survivor rather than justifying why you think Benga would be scum not a survivor.

[strike wolf]

Can we also get a prod for Flores please? I think everyone else has at least posted at some point in the last two days.

[Samlen]

If benga is a survivor then we loose one day earlier as they can just side with the mafia once it's mylo. If benga is not a survivor, they are scum and should also be lynched. Benga claiming relatively early and as a more obscure civ could be seen as going for a 'safe' fake claim as well, both of which add to the possibility that he is lying. The only reason to not lynch benga today is if we manage to find someone with a higher probability of being scum.

[ga7]

Well if thats what you say, and you see no connection between yourself and Benga.... and are happy to leave your vote on Benga..... then no I take back my comments. You must be scum. You lack basic understanding of the game, with no reasonable excuse for ignorance.

[...]

if im skum take 2mins and make a case on me you know making a case on me is jsut as easy as making a case on mitch so pull 1 out of your ass and see in the end im not skum

It would be exceptionally difficult to build a case against Mitch right now.

Oh, you're that kind of player.

I'm really not convinced. I don't like Chu's latest post which seems to spend way too much time on explaining the benefits of a potential third party lynch bUT to me, Benga's claim appears very weak as Celts didn't even come up the first two times I searched through Civ6 info (only came up when I specifically searched for Civ + Celts and then only with Civ5) and to me he seems too aggressive in defending someone (especially when not appearing to make much effort to search for alternatives) for someone who's only objective is to survive.

Yeah, rereading a bit, the thing with benga's claim is that it fits the whole WC confused thing but nothing else? I mean, people can play survivors in whatever manner but it certainly doesn't fit with defending other players. Apparently the Celts appeared in Civ 2 & expansion packs from 3 to 5, but I still don't understand what makes them survivory.

[nagerous]

Is it not ironic that the Celts could be survivors considering they got their @sses handed to them by the Romans?

Ultimately I am not buying the claim, though may partially explain why Benga was clueless at first instance of the wider mechanic.

Benga were you directly told you were a minor civilisation?

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

@Strike. No. Nag is now playing better. You may see me as aggressive, however, if no one ever challenges stupid play then there will be no improvement. Nag can improve, and is improving.

@Nag. Exactly.

On which note:

Unvote Vote Ga7

[strike wolf]

I've played with Nag plenty of times to know that he is a solid player.

I'll be frank wing, I have an idea of why you may have changed your tune on Ga but it's not a complete excuse and there's a chance that my translation is harsher on you than what the truth may actu ally end up being. Would you care to explain to those who may not be as confident about it as I am?

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

You are asking me to help you out by being explicit and sharing info with scum?

That is what you are asking.

So no. I wont

[Fircoal]

Waffle

So which is it Fircoal? Is it a good thing or a bad thing to vote for a survivor? You are waving all over the fence here.

My point is that lynching a survivor in itself is basically a neutral action, maybe a bit worse for town but more or less neutral.

So if someone has a 50%-50% chance (or whatever chance) of being scum or a survivor, it makes sense to lynch them because the pros of lynching scum are much greater than the cons of lynching a survivor (which there aren't that many)

Whom does killing a 3rd party benefit D1? Town or scum? I'd think scum since town starts all over tomorrow without any real information apart from Benga's flip. It doesn't give too much intel on who is scum as I see it. I mean, what do we do tomorrow?

I don't think so. Think about it this way, what do survivors look like to scum? While scum are able to know who is scum and who isn't, they have no idea what the roles of the people who aren't scum are. Thusly to them they are going to assume that a survivor is a town member. The way they act will be affected with that in mind, not with the idea that Benga is a survivor. So in theory it should be able to tell us just as much as a town lynch since both the town and scum would be playing it the same way. However it comes with the benefit of lynching survivor instead of town. So it does come with information.

That said the thing that need to be accounted for is the missed lynch opportunity (that is the extra chance that we could have had to lynch scum). Which is a bit the main reason it's not just a net good for town. I'd probably say it's more of a toss up, a push. Scum are happy that one of their own didn't die while town are alright that their numbers are still mostly intact while they get some information.

Of course this is if the player lynched is a survivor.

The thing is Banga made it weird by claiming what he was very early on. The thing is, unless you think it's 80%+ likely that he's a survivor there's no reason not to vote for him. There isn't really much of a loss with a survivor death, while there is a great gain with a scum death. So there isn't really much risk.

I touched on this briefly earlier in the post but to iterate more clearly: This seems like a lot of justification for why it's okay to lynch a survivor rather than justifying why you think Benga would be scum not a survivor.

Look at the quote that I quoted. The question isn't, "Why is benga scum?" the question is "Whom does killing a 3rd party benefit D1?". I set out to answer that question.

[Fircoal]

If benga is a survivor then we loose one day earlier as they can just side with the mafia once it's mylo. If benga is not a survivor, they are scum and should also be lynched. Benga claiming relatively early and as a more obscure civ could be seen as going for a 'safe' fake claim as well, both of which add to the possibility that he is lying. The only reason to not lynch benga today is if we manage to find someone with a higher probability of being scum.

QFT

Scum isn't going to kill Benga so he's always going to be around. If he's left at Mylo he's going to side with scum. In fact the fact that we know he's a survivor means he's basically town with the known opinion to turn to scum at any point that it helps him. There is simply no reason why he wouldn't betray the town if given the option to win with scum. Which means he's basically a potential scum if nothing is done about him. (Unless we finD all the scum quick enough which would be great.)

Also let me just add I find it a bit fishy that MM would include a survivor role. They tend to be bland roles. It's just not something it'd expect.

[Metsfanmax]

Hi all. Sorry to interrupt the game, but I need to make an announcement wearing my mod hat. A couple of posts in this game have been reported for being argumentative/trolling. I have reviewed the relevant posts and do not believe that they rise to the level of violation of the Community Guidelines. Tempers sometimes rise in mafia games, and I am going to rely on the game mod in general to determine whether the level of argumentation is getting too hostile. Only blatant violations of the rules like racism or posting pornography (or being Fircoal) will be dealt with; other than that, please try to settle these arguments amongst yourselves.

[Fircoal]

I've played with Nag plenty of times to know that he is a solid player.

I'll be frank wing, I have an idea of why you may have changed your tune on Ga but it's not a complete excuse and there's a chance that my translation is harsher on you than what the truth may actu ally end up being. Would you care to explain to those who may not be as confident about it as I am?

While I don't agree with wings way of going about it I do wonder why Frenchie-chan was wishy-washy on that part. I think he has a point and it should be considered.

[Fircoal]

(or being Fircoal)

HEY!!

[strike wolf]

You are asking me to help you out by being explicit and sharing info with scum?

That is what you are asking.

So no. I wont

It really doesnt. You perceived Ga's reaction to the doc comment as being a continuation of the misunderstanding on how a doc being in the game is unlikely. Believing Benga's claim to be likely, you believed it likely that Ga7 was also third party. Upon Ga not confirming this you concluded that he was scum. Am I close? What did I reveal that hasn't already been stated?

@Fircoal: it still felt like a lot of energy into explaining it.

@Mers: okay. Per your instructions I have reported all of Chu's posts for being Fircoal.

[Skoffin]

I see no reason to keep a survivor alive. And if he is lying then it's all the better.
Vote Benga

Quoting you as you said it explicitly.

There's no reason to actively keep survivors alive, but there is absolutely no reason to actively target survivors over scum. The only valid reason to vote Benga is if we believe he is scum, any 'he may just be a survivor' is wasting towns time and an easy excuse for scum to make for lynching non-scum. Survivors are high value for scum members, which leads into the stuff fircoal posted

Potatoes

Nooope. I don't view it much like a neutral position as you do. Yes, survivor can aid scum later on, but first you are assuming that a survivor is going to do that. And besides which, with the amount of players we have, we have multiple days/nights to determine what to do with him and when. We may have a vig on our side, in which case they can take him out if need be. We'd need at least 1 night to determine if we do or do not have a vig, however. And there is a chance that someone may develop vig powers later on, in which case they can be aiming for known scum or taking out neutral third parties instead of risking hitting town.

Now as to why survivors are high value to scum; there is the obvious 'they can side with them angle', however there is also the fact that survivors do not count in the town pool and the fact that people lynching survivors if oft seen as no big deal. A scum voting/lynching a town member is risky, a scum voting/lynching a survivor is not. Scum voting for survivor claims is good for them as they are not voting their partners and no one really learns much voting a survivor as no one cares about them.
Anyway, we are arguing too much about semantics. you either believe Benga is third party - in which case you are scum for voting him. Or you believe he is scum pretending to be third party - in which case call him scum, don't make reasons as to why it's okay to vote third parties.

Uncultured barbarian.



Vote wing

I'm quite mad that you got to this before I did.


Ga7 and others had questions regarding civs and celts. Any playable nation is a Civilisation, anything else is a City-State. Celts last appeared in an expansion for Civ 5, they are not in Civ 6. The most fishy thing about Benga's claim is that, personally, I would have used a city-state as a third party. (I'm no expert on civ, just fyi)


Also, I find it amusing that this game got reported but the last one did not

[TimWoodbury]

i say lets lynch the one who did the reporting lets go the pitchforks out now