The Murder Of Albarezzi- End Game- Mafia Wins!

[Commander9]

I was trying to lay low but Commander called me out on it and then saf built his case from there.

OMGuising? Nice.

Sorry that I've pointed that you were laying low and not contributing at all. Geee...

[spiesr]

God I wish someone would just hammer so this cockup would be over.

I don't want some scum to come in here and hammer our supposed doc.

A little schizophrenic there? That is supposed to be my job. It's the bees I tell you, mind control!
Anyhow, so yoshi appears to be claiming our now suicidal doc. So what do we do now? Lynch him anyway? Go find yet another person? Go back to lynch AD?

[Commander9]

A little schizophrenic there? That is supposed to be my job. It's the bees I tell you, mind control!
Anyhow, so yoshi appears to be claiming our now suicidal doc. So what do we do now? Lynch him anyway? Go find yet another person? Go back to lynch AD?

FoS Spiesr.

Unless someone counter claims, why should we kill our doc? He may be acting out and playing a bit idiotic, but we didn't kill herk in Briarsburg. Why would you suggest this?

[DoomYoshi]

It is not a WIFOM argument. I am saying that the same action should be taken regardless of whether she is mafia, knowing full well that she is most likely town. When I say frame, I didn't mean the mafia ability frame. I meant the mafia would kill someone who had voted for violet in order to frame her in the eyes of the town. That is why I had earlier stated that my opinions could get me killed, as I am the perfect target.

Then it's a WIFOM argument again. Mafia might think that we think they're going to frame Vio with the kill and kill someone who didn't hop on the bandwagon. In fact, when I'm mafia, we usually leave the people who make accusations around because it's easier to pin blame on them later. It's a circular argument, we cannot use what we think the mafia is going to do as basis for what we do now. All we can do is see what the mafia did and then try to go from there.

It just occured to me that saf said the same thing I was trying to say at the time. My thought was we should kill Vi, so she can not be framed later. I say frame, saf says pin the blame. We have a lot of accusations now, so my line of thinking has moved on a lot since then, but I would like to point out that the initial reasoning for me being scum is totally wrong. Like I said, my case was not there for saf to take advantage of. He built it himself.

[pancakemix]

You people need to stop taking everything you read for granted. Just because someone claims doc doesn't make it so. How about a NAME, dear apothecary?

And if he's lying and there's a real doctor in the house, DO NOT counterclaim. Anyways, I have a longer post on the way so stay tuned.

[safariguy5]

Once again, OMGUSing me by accusing me of being mafia. Just going on record here, you're going to look really bad if I get killed because I am not mafia. There is 1 thing that may be either the nail in the coffin on your case or save you. You asked how many doctors there were in this game.

Before I defend myself saf and edoc, humour me with an answer to a n00b question: how many docs are usually in an 11 player game?

Usually 1, but there can be no set doc and have say a JOAT with protect and bodyguard combo to compensate. Jailkeeper is also a possibility. But a straight up saving role is usually just 1.

Now, I thought this was just someone new asking a question, but now that you've claimed doc, it takes on a bit more meaning.

1. You really are the doctor, and you were trying to figure out whether there are any others.

2. You are not the doctor, and you were trying to figure out how many possible saving actions there could be at night.

What this boils down to however, is that if we assume that Nark is telling the truth about being lovers with a JOAT and that the JOAT is the standard type, then either Yoshi or Nark is lying about their claim.

From a game balance standpoint, I find it hard to believe that we would have both a JOAT and a doctor in an 11 player game. Whoever we end up lynching, I'm pretty sure 1 out of these two is mafia.

[DoomYoshi]

I am 100% telling the truth.

Doesn't make any sense to go and kill two townies when there is no harm, no foul, right? Victor didn't get lynched and everyone is still alive, so after I get done with class and work today, I'll browse through a quick re-read and see what's up. If you guys REALLY want me to die, though... Someone is coming with me.

There is a distinct chance that we will have one dead townie, but why would you try to hammer on a foolish case? Surely you know the time and lynches would be spent on you. It is not the action of a townie, it is the action of 3rd party who has little care for who dies or a scum trying to cover his tracks.

Or someone trying to move past Day 1.

Patience is key on day 1, theres no point rushing a game or mistakes would be made, only scum/third party will care about this i dont believe his claim hes trying to stay alive UNVOTE VOTE ANARK

I agree 100% with Drabod here. So Nark was scummy for trying to move past day 1 and I am also scummy for trying to stay on day 1. We can't have it both ways.

IMO I think Yoshi or PCM would be the best possible lynches. You already know my thoughts on PCM. Yoshi waffled quite a bit between Nark and Vic, trying to follow public opinion but really just drawing attention to himself. others have also stated cases against him that I find plausible.

Unvote Vote Yoshi

Also Nark, I do desire to know if your lover has a protection.

Another case against me. How did I draw attention to myself? I was not following public opinion, I was specifically going against public opinion. True, I was wrong about Narks claim, but everyone makes mistakes.

Again, the main crux of my case on you was the vote on victor when people suspected nark. The vote looks like you're trying to stay active as scum but fear the possibility of the bomb taking you out.

So edoc thinks I am scum for following popular opinion and saf thinks I am scum for not following public opinion. Basically everyone seems to have a different idea of what constitutes evidence.

Doom Yoshi - This player has been the most suspicious in my eyes throughout the game, firstly he tried to push the case on victor even though victors claiming to be the doc even though anark had claimed to be a bomb at the time. Then he has now quickly changed his mind and is "spiritually" voting anark. Both of the claimed roles are effective when used well to the town and key for the town to succeed. So spirtually i feel he has no case on either of them as i previously stated.

I didn't try to push the case on Victor, I simply voted for him when there was not enough votes for it to matter. Now that is what scum would do, but not if there was no case to be presented. Victor claimed to be the doc? I couldn't find that anywhere.

Unless someone counter claims, why should we kill our doc? He may be acting out and playing a bit idiotic,

Don't think I didn't notice the character smear there. By claiming I am idiotic, you are lowering the level of suspicion on my claim towards you.

Just going on record here, you're going to look really bad if I get killed because I am not mafia.

I realize that, but as it stood I was at L-1, so it wouldn't have mattered much anyway.

@edoc, you hate speculating, but that is all day 1 consists of. Why don't you just not play day 1?

[edocsil]

From a game balance standpoint, I find it hard to believe that we would have both a JOAT and a doctor in an 11 player game. Whoever we end up lynching, I'm pretty sure 1 out of these two is mafia.

If this place is as kill heavy as we think it is I wouldn't say this is too many protections. A SK and a Mafia is a lot of killers for an 11 man too. You should know this FoS

Spiesr, What I meant by those two lines was that it would be simpler if that was what happened, not what is necessarily best for the town.

Yoshi, Out of principle because you are still throwing scumtells like crazy and because you played a derp of a doc. When you are under fire, don't attempt to divert attention, counter the points and then provide a lead for others to follow once things cool down. I would also like a name from you Yoshi, they will prove to be important.

PCM, I am interested with what you have to say. I think I have an inkling who you will be gunning for.

[edocsil]

Oh, missed the last thing I wanted to add. Yoshi, the is speculating and speculating. I really don't know how else to say it. One is a lynch based off a few subtle scumtells the other is saying you have half the game found out and you know who 3 of the scum are.

[DoomYoshi]

Here comes the piece of evidence anyone needs to kill me: I have lost the pm which had my name in it. All I can remember is that I am the doctor.

As for your final point, I never claimed I had half the game figured out until I was on my deathbed anyway. The speculating that annoyed you were simply ideas.

To your advice on how I should defend myself, I still disagree that the cases were anything but flimsy.

[Commander9]

Don't think I didn't notice the character smear there. By claiming I am idiotic, you are lowering the level of suspicion on my claim towards you.

Dude, don't take it personally, but you've played it completely wrong uptil now. You say that I've started everything on you, but all I did is I pointed something that was true at that time - you were inactive and not contributing anything of substance. You know who wins if no one from the town comes out to make cases and point out such stuff? Mafia.

Perhaps saying you were idiotic was too far and I understand that you're new, but try to adapt and learn and not repeat the same thing - you're only getting yourself into more trouble.

[edocsil]

Here comes the piece of evidence anyone needs to kill me: I have lost the pm which had my name in it. All I can remember is that I am the doctor.

As for your final point, I never claimed I had half the game figured out until I was on my deathbed anyway. The speculating that annoyed you were simply ideas.

To your advice on how I should defend myself, I still disagree that the cases were anything but flimsy.

Fishy. You better get it from the mod quickly. That being said my first game the mod gave me the wrong role. God that sucked, couldn't believe I didn't get hung. It isn't the end of the world.

[DoomYoshi]

I looked up the word scumtell and I found this on the page:

A town player is going to be actively trying to find scum and determine who is town, while a scum player is looking to score points, or win arguments. This leads to different arguing styles.

So the fact that I wasn't concerned about my attack is not (according to the above wiki article) scumtell.

[edocsil]

I looked up the word scumtell and I found this on the page:

A town player is going to be actively trying to find scum and determine who is town, while a scum player is looking to score points, or win arguments. This leads to different arguing styles.

So the fact that I wasn't concerned about my attack is not (according to the above wiki article) scumtell.

In plainspeak they mean Scumtell = something that indicates you are scum, unless I am entirely mistaken.

[pancakemix]

In an effort to give Yoshi the benefit of the doubt based on his inexperience, I am going to analyze his claim on saf. So far, I think there is actually some credence to it. I'll also be commenting on Yoshi more than I have

Let's start this back at the wagon on me. Saf finally chimes in on page 9.

Yes, PCM could definitely be under scrutiny for accusing Commander of vote hopping. However, I'm not buying the evidence of him not responding to joke cases. If the case isn't something substantive, you cannot expect someone to respond seriously. However, since a false accusation of vote hopping is the scummiest piece of behavior we have so far and really what you're looking for on Day 1 anyways, I think PCM is the best candidate.

unvote vote PCM

Now at this point I have already clarified the "vote-hopping post", but for some reason, saf (among others) chose either to skim over it or ignore it and try to perpetuate the misconception. Skimming is itself a mildly scummy act, but trying to continue confusion like that is far worse. The vote based on these faulty grounds isn't particularly strange, but it just shouldn't have happened. It was either careless or sinister, but both motives seem like ones that are overeager to end the day. He also leaves his vote on after I reexplain my post, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Since Yoshi's main (and really only) point on saf is that he's followed the wagon, I'll be keeping track.

Safari bandwagon participation count: 1

So I make a big post about why there's no case on me. Then safari says this:

Ok, well my thoughts on pcm is that he might have said some suspicious things, but nothing really out and out scummy to me. Vio was trying to get the game going again, and Drabod seems to have woken up. Victor, let's face it, is probably too busy with other things to consistently post in here. If we're going to lynch someone for submarining, why not go for the guy who's probably going to be the least active is not nonexistent in all likelihood in the coming days? Dead weight best shed now.

unvote vote Victor

No knock on you as a player Sully, but you have that newsletter stuff and are really busy. I just don't think you can concentrate on everything at once.

Wait, why did you vote me then? Why didn't you unvote when I explained the one thing you found scummy? What other reason could you have had for voting me than just trying to get the day over with?

Anyways, now we're on to the Victor wagon. Safari actually starts this one, presumably because, based on the things I've just stated, he saw my lynch was going nowhere (Not that there was no case on Victor, but this is a very quick turnaround). This lasts for a little while until Victor finally shows up. And this is also the point where saf and yoshi first clash. For the sake of brevity, I'm going to link to these posts rather than quote them.

Safari bandwagon participation count: 2

The post in question.

On 3 Factions: I can definitely see how someone could get to a 3 faction conclusion. I feel that my 7:2:2 conjecture is still feasible, and is actually probably more balanced than 7:3:1. Yes, 8:3 is about as likely, but I'm not posting this to argue setup.

On Comm's list: Eh. Not really that big a deal.

On voting Violet: Now, to be fair, I still have some points I raised on Violet which were never responded to (you can go have a look if you want, but atm there are more pressing matters, I think). As we speak, I have a vote on violet. But Yoshi's reason for holding off on voting Violet is weird, especially when he thinks Victor's a good candidate. It amounts to "I didn't want to get voted for having an opinion, but I'll say it now that the discussion I had an opinion on is over." So basically, just causing a distraction. Therefore, I think this FOS is warranted.

We'll move on to the next post, which is the one directly below the one I just linked. Yoshi provides his reasoning, but it's not very good because it assumes Violet and I are the only choices for a lynch, which is not the case. In addition, the Victor case is more relevant, but he does give a reasonable justification for not voting him (except that it's glean, not gleam[/grammarnazi]). Safari fires back saying that the last case is a WIFOM argument. He's wrong.

A clearer description of what I think Yoshi was getting at: If both Violet and I were town, and we lynched me, then the mafia would choose not to kill her during the night because she would be an easy lynch based on the fact that she brought a lousy case against me. However, if we were to lynch her on Day 1, there would be only the one failed lynch rather than 2 (Vio alone vs. Me & Vio).

Now the use of the word "frame" is very important here. Yoshi's choice of that word may have been ill-advised given the ability of the Framer role. But on the other hand, that role is extremely rare. I actually can't think of a game I've played in where there was a Framer (there might have been one in freezie's HP game, but that's all I can think of). But Safari starts talking about framing in that sense. I can only interpret it in that sense of the word. He doesn't question it (i.e. "How do you know there's a framer?"). He just takes it as it is. This is the only way this could be a WIFOM. And I think this is also a fundamental blunder on Safari's part. I think he basically admitted the mafia have a framer. Which means he knows that. Which means he's mafia.

Yoshi tries to clarify himself by suggesting we blindly lynch someone who is probably town. Safari replies something that makes no sense, but is essentially what Yoshi is advocating. You know what? I have no idea what the logic is in these posts. I don't think they do either. Regardless, the framer thing still stands. I really can't explain that any other way.

So we move on to Nark. Victor is cleared by edoc (but he still really hasn't said much...) and Nark falls under heavy judgement. Safari is one of the first to jump.

Safari bandwagon participation count: 3

Nark claims bomb right quick. Yoshi buys into it, voting for victor instead, even though Nark's role has no given name and victor has edoc backing him up (which I don't 100% buy, tbqh. A role of implied importance with nothing but each other to back it up? Plus a family connection in a game where the theme has real mafias? Yeah I bet. Plus Victor's done little to help himself. But this post already has two cases in it and doesn't need another).

So Yoshi gets crap for believing Nark's crap. Safari summarizes his whole case against Yoshi at this point. He basically just quotes himself, I've gone over all of it: the thing about me and violet (which Yoshi responded to and it didn't make a whole lot of sense but at least it kinda got at what saf wanted), The WIFOM thing (still makes no sense because they're not even in the same book let alone on the same page) and the Nark thing (actually pretty legit, but I'm still not sold on victor) and starts the Yoshi wagon.

Safari bandwagon participation count: 4. Yup, that's all of 'em.

Yoshi tries to defend himself. He doesn't do a very good job, but at least he acknowledges it. And because it's not that good, Safari makes short work of it. I have no idea what Yoshi's second defense is about. It sounds like despair, but it does hint at his doc claim. He suggests there might be a framer (and I think he's right, in case you missed it above), at which point edoc goes apeshit. Yoshi finally claims because he has nothing left to defend himself with and says his spiritual vote is on Nark (why it has to be spiritual I'm really not sure). It's like he's one of those people who get culture after everyone else. The guy makes a Charlie Sheen joke in 5 years? That's Yoshi.

Yoshi suggests that Safari is mafia, and then Safari propmtly calls him out on OMGUS (true, but note how aggressive safari has been) and afterwards makes an assertion that is completely ungrounded. Yoshi reveals he has lost his pm with his name. And so, here is where we stand.

Has Yoshi acted scummy? Absolutely. But he's only acted scummy in ways that are newbish. Yes, not having his role name is very fishy, because if in fact he does have his role name and it ends in Albarezzi, then he's in trouble. But that and the Nark thing are really the worst of it, and it all seems more misguided than malicious.

But Safari's a whole other story. He is very agressive, has a very telling vote pattern, and I really can't explain the framer thing. I'm going to unvote vote Safari.

Phew.

[Anarkistsdream]

I am SO freaking confused right now... Hahahaha

How about this? You guys all get to vote who I vig in the night, as well. I will vig that person.

My love will either vig a second player or protect me, so get your votes out for that one.

Now, let's hammer someone and see who is right and who is LYING!?!?! This back and forth will never end.

[DoomYoshi]

If I turn out to be town, it doesn't mean that Saf is mafia. If Saf turns out to be town, it doesn't mean that I am mafia. I don't understand how a quick lynch can help anyone other than mafia at this point. The back and forth will end. Soon, assuming sax agrees to my request for a resending of my role.

[Commander9]

@ Huge PCM's post

Can't believe I've read the whole thing. To be fair, I probably started the AD Bw, but it was fully justified - I would not blame anyone for participating in it. However, a very nice catch that Safari takes away framer's role and then run's with it. All in all, your case definitely has some merit and while it's not extremely strong, I think we can test it out.

Vote Safari.

I'm just afraid that we'll end doing a stupid mass claim on day 1 by the way this has been going. I also still think that there's at least one liar among all of those, who claimed. (If I'd be pushed, I'd go with AD).

If I turn out to be town, it doesn't mean that Saf is mafia. If Saf turns out to be town, it doesn't mean that I am mafia. I don't understand how a quick lynch can help anyone other than mafia at this point. The back and forth will end. Soon, assuming sax agrees to my request for a resending of my role.

Got to agree with this - but it might mean if scum give themselves away enough. And what if you or Saf turn out to be mafia?

Also Yoshi, I'm giving you a benefit of the doubt, although not knowing your character's name is really bad. Can you PM the mod and ask to resend the role? I would really love to hear the name.

[DoomYoshi]

Just so everyone knows, I did pm once edoc asked me to. He is a mod, so is probably busy but I will update the moment I know my name.

[Commander9]

Any news from Vio, Drabod and Sully? Guys, we would love you to join and write something in the chat as well... You know, like, contribute...

[safariguy5]

I have modded games where I use Mafia Framer (See Tarantino). Therefore, using "frame" makes it seem like Yoshi was talking about framing as the role to me.

Also PCM, I was the one who initiated the case on Yoshi and also the one who voted him first. You can't bandwagon on someone if you're the first person to vote him. FOS PCM.

And how exactly are we suddenly so sure that it could be a three faction game? We're basing our assumption on NK's and protection roles based on the mod's background? While it's plausible, I'm sticking by my guns here and saying that we shouldn't speculate about what factions there may or may not be based on such evidence. 1 night should shake out how many killing roles there are.

And so basically PCM is saying that the strongest piece of evidence on me is what he reads as a Freudian Slip about how the mafia have a framer. As I indicated in the first lines, I usually read "frame" as the role, so call it a misinterpretation of diction. I don't know whether the mafia has a framer, and we probably wouldn't find out.

However, as we apparently seem to have outed half of the town power roles, I feel that any more unnecessary wagons on more people may lead to collateral damage. Assuming that everyone before me is telling the truth, then I'm probably the least valuable person to have come under fire so far. So in the interests of the town, I'll claim now, and if everyone wants to lynch me, I rest assured that the people with the power roles will have some likely targets in the night and the protective roles will know who to protect and we should find out who's lying relatively soon.

I am Sergio Russo, Town Busdriver.

[spiesr]

To be fair, I probably started the AD Bw, but it was fully justified - I would not blame anyone for participating in it.

Well, of course you are hesitant to blame people for agreeing with you, that would imply that you were at the very least wrong.

How about this? You guys all get to vote who I vig in the night, as well. I will vig that person.

Interestingly enough, my second choice for a lynch would be you, so I don't imagine that you would vig yourself for me now would you?

Now the use of the word "frame" is very important here. Yoshi's choice of that word may have been ill-advised given the ability of the Framer role. But on the other hand, that role is extremely rare. I actually can't think of a game I've played in where there was a Framer (there might have been one in freezie's HP game, but that's all I can think of). But Safari starts talking about framing in that sense. I can only interpret it in that sense of the word. He doesn't question it (i.e. "How do you know there's a framer?"). He just takes it as it is. This is the only way this could be a WIFOM. And I think this is also a fundamental blunder on Safari's part. I think he basically admitted the mafia have a framer. Which means he knows that. Which means he's mafia.

Well, I can say this about safariguy, he is very much aware of the framer role. I had a cult alignment framer role in his Modern Warfare mafia, so I can see how he would come to think of the actual role when DoomYoshi mentioned "framing." (Amusingly enough, if memory serves, in that game of follow the cop my only successful frame was on the mafia godfather.)

Another case against me. How did I draw attention to myself?

As a newcomer to mafia here you have done several small things that are tripping the scum radars of the more established players. It is hard to explain what exactly these things are, but in general, being new you just don't quite "mesh" with the other players just yet. Something about you just seems off, and the sense of things being off is used by players to detect scum by gut feeling. This often happens with new players. The problem is that it is hard to determine if the scum-tells one is sensing from a new player are because he is new, or becuase he is new and scum. Not sure how to get around this when new players come into the mafia forum. Games specifically for new players are one way to kind of break them in, but they require a certain amount of new players to work.

[edocsil]

God, a lot of claims out there. PCM I suspected that your target was going to be Saf, as he is the one I suspected as well. With him flipping busdriver IDK if we should lynch or not. Could easily be mafia, hard to tell.

[VioIet]

I am SO freaking confused right now... Hahahaha

How about this? You guys all get to vote who I vig in the night, as well. I will vig that person.

My love will either vig a second player or protect me, so get your votes out for that one.

Now, let's hammer someone and see who is right and who is LYING!?!?! This back and forth will never end.

WTH!!!! OMG, I seriously want to lynch anark and his lover as well. Last thing we need are two reckless town vigs. You just don't go killing unknown people.
Just because you both have the ability to kill someone tonight, doesn't mean you should.
Also, you still want a quick hammer.

Saf, I don't like bus drivers. Not one bit. They botch up results for the town. Also, bus driver is just as common on the mafia side, as it is on the town side.

Unless someone counter claims, why should we kill our doc? He may be acting out and playing a bit idiotic, but we didn't kill herk in Briarsburg. Why would you suggest this?

Herk was only in two games, which ended two months ago, yet he still gets talked about so much


It took me 30 minutes to read pancake's post. That was quite fast. Amazing contribution, and I think that case against saf is pretty solid.

However, from my perspective, the mafia framer role seems to be very common this game. I've seen it in a handful of games- though I'm not exactly sure how it works.

Since we've had several claims so far, I'd like to do an outline of all the players and possible alignments.

Town
Nark - town vig
Sully - town deputy
Yoshi - town doctor
Edoc - town deputy's son
Vi - town

Survivor
spiesr - end of the world

Unkown
Commander
pancake
safari
/
drabod

Provided that everyone is telling the truth, at least two of those in the unknown category must be mafia.

I was almost going to vote safari, as I was persuaded by pancake's argument.

But for some reason- / seems the scummiest of all players so far. I cant' say why, nor make a case against him yet. But just an inner feeling I have.

[Commander9]

Unclaimed:
Commander9
Edocsil
Vioiet
drabod
/
Spiesr
pcm

Semi-claimed:
Victor - Edoc's father. (never got anything from him himself)

Claimed "townies"
AD - Valentino De Luca, Town Vig and Lover.
Yoshi - nameless town doctor.
safari - Sergio Russo, Town Busdriver.

I don't think I've missed anyone.

EDIT: GAAAH, Vi did it before me. FML.