[Official] D&D Mafia ~ Endgame

[strike wolf]

If I had to guess I would probably say there are two scum factions. A loosely organized faction of lawful and neutral evils and a tightly wound group of chaotic evils. Considering that good neutral and evil lawfuls can all win together but good/neutral chaotics cannot win with chaotixc evil and vise versa, i would suspect that there probably an extra chaotic in the mix or Edoc balanced them to be a bit stronger individually than lawful to match strength. I would also not rule out a cult in chaos but given cults tendency to revert without their leader, I would think that isnt the case or edoc has changed the mechanism so that they would remain cult or some other balancing method.

[MoB Deadly]

IIRC - edoc hates the premise of cults and people "switching alignments" because it ruins the premise of the game?
Is that correct or am I remembering someone else saying something like that.

[TheForgivenOne]

Alright, I was given this information, and Edoc said I could use it as I like (I really hope something doesn't happen to me). I can confirm that their is a cult in the game.

[strike wolf]

IIRC - edoc hates the premise of cults and people "switching alignments" because it ruins the premise of the game?
Is that correct or am I remembering someone else saying something like that.

Youre probably thinking of me. *Stabs every cult member. Gets recruited abnd suicide bombs the United Cult Embassies.

[strike wolf]

Sorry that last post was kind of extreme. Hope it didnt offend anyone.

[betiko]

Alright, I was given this information, and Edoc said I could use it as I like (I really hope something doesn't happen to me). I can confirm that their is a cult in the game.

Can you elaborate? Was it in your role pm or is it after questioning edoc in private? I personally asked publicly my questions once i receive my role pm. Edoc did say in the role pm that we could ask him questions about the game mechanics though.

In this case, my guess would be that evil evil chaotic(s) are cult.. And maybe they can only recruit certain factions?

Maybe the 2 other evil factions are masoned a bit like separate scum groups... I don t know.

[TheForgivenOne]

Alright, I was given this information, and Edoc said I could use it as I like (I really hope something doesn't happen to me). I can confirm that their is a cult in the game.

Can you elaborate? Was it in your role pm or is it after questioning edoc in private? I personally asked publicly my questions once i receive my role pm. Edoc did say in the role pm that we could ask him questions about the game mechanics though.

In this case, my guess would be that evil evil chaotic(s) are cult.. And maybe they can only recruit certain factions?

Maybe the 2 other evil factions are masoned a bit like separate scum groups... I don t know.

Was in my role PM.

[jonty125]

Do realize, however, that there is a really tricky aspect of my case I have just decided to erase as it would effectively make my case fail (if you see it, try not to spoil it right away - I don't actually mind the case failing, but I wouldn't want to see the game stop again, so let's go with that for a while). Hope this can spur some discussion.

So you post a case, on betiko, vote him, and admit there is a flaw in your logic but aren't willing to share it? FOS Rodion, I don't like it.

He's simply trying to get the game going. Would you rather have it stall out?

No I wouldn't. And I feel my statment echoes what anamainiacks said but, if he posted the flaw in his logic, then we could judge how major a flaw it is, and it would also cause more discussion. Personally, I can't see what he has to lose by providing it (that been the flaw).


My opinions on alignments, is that N/N, are survivor VT's. E/C, resembles an SK, and I suppose there would have to be a group of E/?, as a mafia. Not sure what alignment the cult is but I guess they recruit people to their alignment, unlikely to be N/N me thinks because cults generally have some beliefs, maybe its like a pro town mason recruiter (or whatever that role is called) and the alignment is G/? (I'm leaning G/L but I only hypothesize).

[Rodion]

Why would Rodion present the case while being conscious of its loopholes though?

Because presenting the "loophole" along with the case would make people go "since you've proven your case is flawed, there is nothing else left to be said regarding it". And then we'd backtrack to jokes about dwarven ales and rolling critical failures.

re: Rodion's case on betiko. I didn't find betiko's vote to be particularly scummy but I need to re-read the gregwolf case build up to see if I can spot the loophole.

Don't fry your brain cells over that. The issue I came up with while writing the case (just like I realized the "case" on Betiko/MoB could also be applied to TFO) is that anyone agreeing with me and voting Betiko (or MoB/TFO) would be essentially doing the same thing they did, namely not finding their posts suspicious and then changing their minds after someone else started a possible wagon. It's like the Betiko voters were Betiko, while I was Safari and Betiko was Greg. (I hope most of you are still following ).

Since the game has succesfully evolved away from jokevote stage, unvote.

Jester could make sense as well

I think they'd fit more the Chaotic/Neutral alignment.

Fastposted:

TFO, is the cult portrayed as an antagonist in your role PM? (I'd guess so, but Jonty suggested the possibility of a pro-town mason recruiter, so better have that analysed as well)

[TheForgivenOne]

Why would Rodion present the case while being conscious of its loopholes though?

Because presenting the "loophole" along with the case would make people go "since you've proven your case is flawed, there is nothing else left to be said regarding it". And then we'd backtrack to jokes about dwarven ales and rolling critical failures.

re: Rodion's case on betiko. I didn't find betiko's vote to be particularly scummy but I need to re-read the gregwolf case build up to see if I can spot the loophole.

Don't fry your brain cells over that. The issue I came up with while writing the case (just like I realized the "case" on Betiko/MoB could also be applied to TFO) is that anyone agreeing with me and voting Betiko (or MoB/TFO) would be essentially doing the same thing they did, namely not finding their posts suspicious and then changing their minds after someone else started a possible wagon. It's like the Betiko voters were Betiko, while I was Safari and Betiko was Greg. (I hope most of you are still following ).

Since the game has succesfully evolved away from jokevote stage, unvote.

Jester could make sense as well

I think they'd fit more the Chaotic/Neutral alignment.

Fastposted:

TFO, is the cult portrayed as an antagonist in your role PM? (I'd guess so, but Jonty suggested the possibility of a pro-town mason recruiter, so better have that analysed as well)

Yes, they are considered as an antagonist. They are a cult of evil dragon worship.

[DoomYoshi]

Flavor wise, cult isn't CE. There is nothing "Chaotic" about cults.

[betiko]

I don t want to put tfo in trouble, but I wonder why his role mentions the cult.. It seems like he s the only one (other than cult guys i guess).

I m also keeping a theory for later: maybe he needs to be recruited by the cult and is winking at them/him by saying he knows the cult exists..

[DoomYoshi]

I don t want to put tfo in trouble, but I wonder why his role mentions the cult.. It seems like he s the only one (other than cult guys i guess).

I m also keeping a theory for later: maybe he needs to be recruited by the cult and is winking at them/him by saying he knows the cult exists..

I am having strong deja vu of HP Lovecraft... anyone else?

So since Lawful and Chaotic CANNOT win together, it seems that Lawfuls outnumber Chaotics as our watcher isn't dead yet. From thence on, we should refer to Lawfuls as "town" to simplify discussions. Thus it is decreed.

[TheForgivenOne]

I don t want to put tfo in trouble, but I wonder why his role mentions the cult.. It seems like he s the only one (other than cult guys i guess).

I m also keeping a theory for later: maybe he needs to be recruited by the cult and is winking at them/him by saying he knows the cult exists..

It was mentioned in the PM that I'm the only one with this knowledge, and it said to use to my own discretion. Don't have a clue why I was given this information, and this was the only info that came with it.

[MoB Deadly]

That is BIG news from TFO. Even though he is probably at severe risk right now I think that information is priceless. Knowing there is a cult in the game, we can be sure that NO ONE can be trusted. Even people that are found "innocent" can be turned later. In the end I think it is more useful to know this information so we can all watch our backs

[TheForgivenOne]

That is BIG news from TFO. Even though he is probably at severe risk right now I think that information is priceless. Knowing there is a cult in the game, we can be sure that NO ONE can be trusted. Even people that are found "innocent" can be turned later. In the end I think it is more useful to know this information so we can all watch our backs

I thought it'd be best to out it, as since it's out, there is really no point in killing me, unless they're mad bro. I saw everyone going around in circles with the SK/cult and thought i'd at least help clarify that there IS a cult.

[strike wolf]

Hmm...as weird as it sounds, I think I have to trust TFO on this. I mean it would be a huge gamble for him to come out with this information if he was cult. Especially as one of cult's biggest strengths is remaining hidden in the game without anyone knowing they exist as they steadily increase in number.

As far as Lawful outnumbering Chaotic, I was thinking the opposite for previously stated reasons, I think if one side has cause to out number the other it's chaotic however since chaotic evil cannot work with anyone outside their win condition that it would balance back out.

Now, would cult be lawful or chaotic? I could see arguments for both, I don't believe that cult is as law driven as another player made them out to be. However ultimately, yes they do seem to follow their own set of laws more than anything else so I would under those pretenses lean towards lawful however, this line keeps coming back to me from Edoc's intro to the game.

Chaotic/Evil are a nasty bunch and want to kill/subjugate everyone.

Now I'm sure between the bold the italics and the red everyone gets the word I am paying close attention to. My curiosity is questioning whether that subjugate is a hint at a recruitment ability within the chaotic evils. Obviously this is largely flavor speculation. However, I do feel it is relatively strong flavor speculation.

[MoB Deadly]

Hey guys I found some information.......

First off. Sorry edoc, I didnt mean to put words in your mouth.... It was this PCM quote from Holiday Mafia that I remembered.

2. I'm going to come forward and say that an alignment change would, in fact, be "gamebreaking". My reason for this that town and mafia, by their nature, should not be playing recruiters. To be more specific, a mafia member changed to town will immediately turn on his former scum-mates. If I cannot, in good conscience, allow that to happen, I cannot allow the opposite to occur either. No one would be able to trust anything, and that violates one my fundamental belief when it comes to designing games: there are some things that one should be able to trust.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway. I also found some more information in the Discussion Thread
viewtopic.php?f=609&t=193997&p=4245259&hilit=cult#p4245259

We must also take this info as a grain of salt. This was a discussion thread and we cannot assume anything. I am sure things changed as he rebalanced the game

I was bouncing around the idea of hosting another game once my summer classes are over, and perhaps running it by the mods as a Official Game. I was thinking a DnD based mafia (3.5e if you're a geek) of ~15 players. Each player would be a class and alignment, this may not make a ton of sense if you don't know how the alignment works, but basically it would remove the traditional town/scum roles (lawful, neutral, chaotic) and (good, neutral, evil) are the 2 alignment types

The majority of players would be (neutral, good), a modest number of (neutral, neutral) and a smaller group of (something, evil). The (neutral, good) can all win together and would be "town". The (lawful, good) and the (chaotic, good) would win with town but not with each other. (lawful, evil) and (neutral, evil) would represent the scum. (Chaotic, evil) would be something that could only win by itself. Some sort of solo dominator, SK, Cult, Arsonist, or other such thing is possible.

Basically lawful can't win with chaotic, and evil can't win with good, unless all good and evil living are lawful. Good and lawful players would not have to survive to win, so long as their WC was met before the game ended. The more "extreme" a role is the more powerful it would be. (Chaotic, good/evil) would both have powerful abilities, while (neutral, neutral) would have it's primary power in the vote and something to help them survive. (Lawfull, good/evil) would be somewhere in between in terms of power.

Class/race would just be for flavor primarily. Fighters behead people, sorcerers shoot lightning and shit, and dragons are fricken hard to kill.

[MoB Deadly]

So based on the underlined portion...

I feel like that encompasses most of the mafia.

Very Very interesting that Good Lawful, can win with Evil Lawful and Evil Neutral.

And yet Neutral Chaotic cannot win with Evil Lawful.

[DoomYoshi]

Now, would cult be lawful or chaotic? I could see arguments for both, I don't believe that cult is as law driven as another player made them out to be.

So I am now He Who Shall Not Be Named.

[Commander9]

If I had to guess I would probably say there are two scum factions. A loosely organized faction of lawful and neutral evils and a tightly wound group of chaotic evils. Considering that good neutral and evil lawfuls can all win together but good/neutral chaotics cannot win with chaotixc evil and vise versa, i would suspect that there probably an extra chaotic in the mix or Edoc balanced them to be a bit stronger individually than lawful to match strength. I would also not rule out a cult in chaos but given cults tendency to revert without their leader, I would think that isnt the case or edoc has changed the mechanism so that they would remain cult or some other balancing method.

I don't really agree with this. So assuming this, we'd have a faction of 3 CE that know each other and then another evil group loosely together compose of another what 5-6 people? That'd be extremely difficult to balance and I don't see it.

Alright, I was given this information, and Edoc said I could use it as I like (I really hope something doesn't happen to me). I can confirm that their is a cult in the game.

If you don't mind me asking, can you state how did you get this information? (Actually, saw the 2nd reply, nvm).

TFO, is the cult portrayed as an antagonist in your role PM? (I'd guess so, but Jonty suggested the possibility of a pro-town mason recruiter, so better have that analysed as well)

Are you trying to imply that it doesn't have to be antagonistic?

I don t want to put tfo in trouble, but I wonder why his role mentions the cult.. It seems like he s the only one (other than cult guys i guess).

I m also keeping a theory for later: maybe he needs to be recruited by the cult and is winking at them/him by saying he knows the cult exists..

I am having strong deja vu of HP Lovecraft... anyone else?

So since Lawful and Chaotic CANNOT win together, it seems that Lawfuls outnumber Chaotics as our watcher isn't dead yet. From thence on, we should refer to Lawfuls as "town" to simplify discussions. Thus it is decreed.

Yes, yes I am. Something stinks here... And it's not Fircoal

[Rodion]

Are you trying to imply that it doesn't have to be antagonistic?

No. As I said, I just decided to deeper investigate a hypothesis presented in the post before mine.

Not sure what alignment the cult is but I guess they recruit people to their alignment, unlikely to be N/N me thinks because cults generally have some beliefs, maybe its like a pro town mason recruiter (or whatever that role is called) and the alignment is G/? (I'm leaning G/L but I only hypothesize).

[strike wolf]

Hmm..I'm actually going to FOS Jonty for that remark. Cult has always been evil and the mason recruiter has always been the town equivalent to a cult recruiter. Now edoc has been around long enough to consider any town group faction to be called masons. He would not call them cult. Arggh...I had a very clear thought in my head when I started writing this but I can't seem to get it to come out that way. Anyways, my main point is that TFO has confirmed that cult is antagonistic, I am fosing Jonty based on the possible intentional mislead by suggesting possible protagonistic cult.

[TheForgivenOne]

Hmm..I'm actually going to FOS Jonty for that remark. Cult has always been evil and the mason recruiter has always been the town equivalent to a cult recruiter. Now edoc has been around long enough to consider any town group faction to be called masons. He would not call them cult. Arggh...I had a very clear thought in my head when I started writing this but I can't seem to get it to come out that way. Anyways, my main point is that TFO has confirmed that cult is antagonistic, I am fosing Jonty based on the possible intentional mislead by suggesting possible protagonistic cult.

Just pointing out that I hadn't said they were evil yet when Jonty made that post.

I said we had a cult, he posted his, I said they were an evil dragon worshipers.

However, I haven't encountered a cult that is considered "Good". So maybe he's trying to make it look like I was mentioning a Mason instead of a Cult.

[rishaed]

Hmm..I'm actually going to FOS Jonty for that remark. Cult has always been evil and the mason recruiter has always been the town equivalent to a cult recruiter. Now edoc has been around long enough to consider any town group faction to be called masons. He would not call them cult. Arggh...I had a very clear thought in my head when I started writing this but I can't seem to get it to come out that way. Anyways, my main point is that TFO has confirmed that cult is antagonistic, I am fosing Jonty based on the possible intentional mislead by suggesting possible protagonistic cult.

Just pointing out that I hadn't said they were evil yet when Jonty made that post.

I said we had a cult, he posted his, I said they were an evil dragon worshipers.

However, I haven't encountered a cult that is considered "Good". So maybe he's trying to make it look like I was mentioning a Mason instead of a Cult.

A dragon might also be a possibility for C/E, would probably work more like an SK than anything, but very powerful? Also, seeing as Jonty was twitchy about painting the cult in a good/best light I will vote Jonty. Cult is never pro-town and you have been around long enough to know that.