Emotions Mafia {6/10} GAME OVER: MAFIA WINS!

[Iron Butterfly]

Well that was most unexpected. I have never played in a game where mafia was a Doc.

While I was wrong about Zivel we got the best possible outcome by lynching him. We got mafia and prevented a night kill. Pure luck of course. I have no idea what to expect now. It was certainly a harsh penalty to mafia not to be able to nightkill.

[MudPuppy]

Pure luck of course.

I totally knew that was going to happen.
Not a bad result for a mislynch!!!

[virus90]

definately not, lose a VT day 1 is normal, a maffia doc to accompany it, not at all.
makes me wonder, did NoS knew he was in love with zivel? if so it explains him being in the drake camp (i guess he knew)
then my next question: did the rest of maffia knew? so would that mean to look for the next scum in camp Drake? but since maffia is only allowed to talk at night in most games (right?), i would doubt that they already where able to know. but the maffia knows one and another.. do they also get like the role PM of there buddy? so could they know after all?
my experience with the game is not enough to know what is usual and what is not.
anyway i atleast wanted to voice my line of reasoning. see if you think it makes sense or that it is not likely.

[Iron Butterfly]

Mafia will know their team. I doubt they would know Zivel was part of Lover team.

[drake_259]

Mafia will know their team. I doubt they would know Zivel was part of Lover team.

Mafia should have known NoS was a Doctor/Lover, But i doubt they knew who with.

Although yous lot don't know what i am yet still just a few pointers from my perspective

NoS started that bandwagon on me.
I would say sausage should be pretty safe as a town. why would he start another wagon when i only needed 2 votes?
Jonty & TFO both voted to lynch me sticking with NoS
MP Didn't know what to do. He was playing with who to vote for and dragging it out, too me it looked like he was trying to look innocent either way he voted.
IB pcm & Virus could be either way but leaning town on IB.

IDK there is definitely something funny about puppy, i said it at the start, i started to believe he was fine but i am still really feeling it but cannot grab anything hard.

Finally at Mod I was at L2 at lynch not L1 :@

[jak111]

This will be the one and only time I explain this for my games.

Blue (sometimes Green) = Town
Red (sometimes Purple) = Mafia
ANYTHING ELSE = 3rd party

[drake_259]

This will be the one and only time I explain this for my games.

Blue (sometimes Green) = Town
Red (sometimes Purple) = Mafia
ANYTHING ELSE = 3rd party

So he is not mafia. He was 3rd party.

Okay... Ignore my previous comment.

Might be good to avoid colours close to red especially for the colour blind lol

[MudPuppy]

MP Didn't know what to do. He was playing with who to vote for and dragging it out, too me it looked like he was trying to look innocent either way he voted.

I think I made it pretty clear I favored lynching you, drake. I was "dragging it out" because I was hoping one of the Zivel votes would come and switch... though, admittedly I wouldn't have minded terribly if one of the drake votes switched either. When neither happened, I had a choice between a no lynch and the lynch of someone I didn't have much of a scum read on... I went for the latter. I can't say I felt comfortable voting for him but I stand by the vote.

[virus90]

MP Didn't know what to do. He was playing with who to vote for and dragging it out, too me it looked like he was trying to look innocent either way he voted.

I think I made it pretty clear I favored lynching you, drake. I was "dragging it out" because I was hoping one of the Zivel votes would come and switch... though, admittedly I wouldn't have minded terribly if one of the drake votes switched either. When neither happened, I had a choice between a no lynch and the lynch of someone I didn't have much of a scum read on... I went for the latter. I can't say I felt comfortable voting for him but I stand by the vote.

i was thinking about doing the same myself (but the other way around) to get the kill. basically someone had to do it. wont hold that up against you. doesn't mean you get a get out of jail free card but i get your decision.

[Whatsausage]

I can't say that I've seen a third party doctor before... Interesting. Does lover work that his win condition would have been for zivel to survive then? So it appears he would be pretty pro-town for a third party if that is the case... So not the best result... (Even if I'm sure he would only protect zivel) It makes sense that the night kill was taken away otherwise this could be a very short game. We can't afford to miss again today... Unfortunately we don't have too much to go on. I don't blame MP for being the hammer, someone had to do it, we had to take the chance on who I believed was the scummiest player, it just didn't work out too well. I'm sorry zivel, it turns out you were telling the truth, my bad.

With the third party member, I have to wonder if there are only two scum or if he was close enough to pro-town that there are three scum. However, if drake is telling the truth, that would have given the town multiple VTs in what could be a 6 on 3 on 1. I could be wrong, but that seems a little imbalanced (even if the scum are nerfed a little bit what with happened the past night and all). So either drake is lying (I don't think so) or there are just two scum (I am inclined to believe this more). But again, either way we cannot afford to miss again today. (easier said than done haha)

[Iron Butterfly]

I can't say that I've seen a third party doctor before... Interesting. Does lover work that his win condition would have been for zivel to survive then? So it appears he would be pretty pro-town for a third party if that is the case... So not the best result... (Even if I'm sure he would only protect zivel) It makes sense that the night kill was taken away otherwise this could be a very short game. We can't afford to miss again today... Unfortunately we don't have too much to go on. I don't blame MP for being the hammer, someone had to do it, we had to take the chance on who I believed was the scummiest player, it just didn't work out too well. I'm sorry zivel, it turns out you were telling the truth, my bad.

With the third party member, I have to wonder if there are only two scum or if he was close enough to pro-town that there are three scum. However, if drake is telling the truth, that would have given the town multiple VTs in what could be a 6 on 3 on 1. I could be wrong, but that seems a little imbalanced (even if the scum are nerfed a little bit what with happened the past night and all). So either drake is lying (I don't think so) or there are just two scum (I am inclined to believe this more). But again, either way we cannot afford to miss again today. (easier said than done haha)

First your post confuses me by referring to NoS as third party. He flipped red which indicates mafia. I have asked for clarity on this matter from Jak...but I assume Nos to be mafia.

With that being the case that does put mafia at a distinct disadvantage unless there is something to counterbalance it. While i have never seen a doc as mafia I have seen mafia/town lovers.

[Iron Butterfly]

OK...lol asked for clarity and got an answer right after I posted above. NOS was third party not mafia. Sorry for confusion. The lettering looked red on my screen.

That does change things. I guess the third party doc would need to have kept zivel alive to win. While losing a doc is not good he certainly did not have the best interests of Town. His win would work only if Zivel survived, which is a big handicap in itself.

With that kind of handicap I would think we have two mafia left. having them tied together and three mafia would be impossible.

[pancakemix]

Seems I missed the last bit of yesterday. Blerg. Seems I was at least right in that Zivel knew more about mafia theory than he was letting on.

Flavor spec: I'm curious if other VTs have side effects to their deaths as well? For example, assuming drake is as he claims, there might be another death stemming from his (not likely that specifically considering balance but you get the idea)?

One thing that struck me as odd from yesterday was that virus was very easily swayed to vote for zivel. One post, to be exact. By the person he was voting. For the full perspective:

i dont get the zivel vote, so i vote one of the people on the wagon.
vote IB
i rather lynch drake i guess. VT is not a big loss and maybe he is not a VT, anyway we then get some more informtion of the emotions.

If this is your perspective, why not vote drake then? This seems like virus is trying to avoid actually getting involved in the debate going on at this moment, despite making a case himself to do so. Which leads to the next post in sequence:

well everyone is voting on 1 of the 2 targets. i feel the peer presure
if it means i have to choose between these 2 targets, as said when i voted IB i would be o.k. voting drake. I know its not good to play the mod but his claim is a worse emotion... worst case scenario lose a towny. I think it is more important to lynch someone then to not lynch. because no majority means no lynch (see message above mine).

I thought there was a prompt from another player for this post, but there wasn't. It's literally (and admittedly) jumping on the bandwagon, because now with two options the only "pressure" virus seems to be feeling is to vote someone for a reason that makes sense. Drake made an excellent response to this post which sums up my thoughts as well:

Erm worse case scenario we lose a townine which ever one you vote for. You are now just repeating what been kept said about me, You gotta remember Zivel has also claimed VT so you can't just say this about me and shug him off.

So solely going to be voting me for me being Anger, Nice, What have i actually really done that puts me in your lynching book, Creating convo? if thats scum in your books then everyone must be scum.

But the final post is the kicker:

your right zivel seems to be scummier, rereading makes that clear, and to be honest VT or VT does not matter much,
so vote zivel but you need someone else to switch as well else it not gonna work.

The whole post is a "lynch for the sake of lynching" post, which is a playstyle I find scummy in general (yes, even on Day 1) but I've highlighted the portion that sticks out to me the most. I find this important because:

1. The dissociative use of the word "you" in this sentence. This suggests to me that virus doesn't really want his name on the lynch, but it is expedient. He's already stated here that he doesn't care between the two of them.

2. "It's not going to work". Like there's some plan here that needs to "work". It's a weird thing to say, especially considering he could have just hammered drake at that moment. So why would he not do that? If it was no benefit to him. Like if drake was his scummate? Couple that with a questionable VT claim and...

I'm going to Vote Virus for the above. Something about this whole Zivel thing just doesn't sit right with me.

[jak111]

1.) jonty125
3.) TheForgivenOne

^ Going to spam their inboxes until they post on D2. (jk, but gonna prod them for activity).

[jonty125]

OK, I'm sure I posted here, but the internet says otherwise.

Pure luck of course.

I totally knew that was going to happen.
Not a bad result for a mislynch!!!

MP, did you know on D1, that Zivel & NoS were lovers, or is it just gloating?

[Whatsausage]

OK, I'm sure I posted here, but the internet says otherwise.

Pure luck of course.

I totally knew that was going to happen.
Not a bad result for a mislynch!!!

MP, did you know on D1, that Zivel & NoS were lovers, or is it just gloating?

I am 99% sure he was being sarcastic.

[virus90]

yes pancakemix, it was meant as a lynch because of the lynch.
i was pretty sure that they where both town thats why i voted IB in the first place. with deadline getting (awfully) close i decided that it was useless to vote on IB, and though nobody specificly asked i felt i had to vote for 1 of the 2 cases. For flavor my preference was to vote drake, since his emotion was "not possitive", but some others pointed out to not play the mod/flavor but look for scum signs. and well i was pretty much convinced that they both where /are town i decided to put my vote on zivel then since he could be considered more scummy if you want to read it that way. Although not pressured, i felt like i had to vote. and im sure if i didnt vote and we had a no lynch (=no information), you or someone else would blame me for voting IB and not voting one of the 2. thats how the game works...
Since i think its ok for town to have a VT die night 1 i am still ok with my decision. and it sucks that the (3th party??? why 3th party?) doc was killed but well i had no clue, cant blame myself for not knowing, and i think you cannot blame me for that either.
so i was one of the people who voted zivel? YES
did i not want to take responsibility? NO - i am responsible, just like the rest, and as i said in a previous post i dont hold the switcher accountable for the lynch. so your blue quoting stuff i dont agree with that at all.
i only meant to say that i leveled the playing field, made it a tie. and only 1 person had to change to finish the day and make the lynch.
as can be seen from the announcements like 100 min remaining it was the time to take these steps, to assure the lynch indeed. but if i wanted a lynch so badly i could have voted drake and have it done with...

[TheForgivenOne]

yes pancakemix, it was meant as a lynch because of the lynch.
i was pretty sure that they where both town thats why i voted IB in the first place. with deadline getting (awfully) close i decided that it was useless to vote on IB, and though nobody specificly asked i felt i had to vote for 1 of the 2 cases. For flavor my preference was to vote drake, since his emotion was "not possitive", but some others pointed out to not play the mod/flavor but look for scum signs. and well i was pretty much convinced that they both where /are town i decided to put my vote on zivel then since he could be considered more scummy if you want to read it that way. Although not pressured, i felt like i had to vote. and im sure if i didnt vote and we had a no lynch (=no information), you or someone else would blame me for voting IB and not voting one of the 2. thats how the game works...
Since i think its ok for town to have a VT die night 1 i am still ok with my decision. and it sucks that the (3th party??? why 3th party?) doc was killed but well i had no clue, cant blame myself for not knowing, and i think you cannot blame me for that either.
so i was one of the people who voted zivel? YES
did i not want to take responsibility? NO - i am responsible, just like the rest, and as i said in a previous post i dont hold the switcher accountable for the lynch. so your blue quoting stuff i dont agree with that at all.
i only meant to say that i leveled the playing field, made it a tie. and only 1 person had to change to finish the day and make the lynch.
as can be seen from the announcements like 100 min remaining it was the time to take these steps, to assure the lynch indeed. but if i wanted a lynch so badly i could have voted drake and have it done with...

I'm sorry... But you're reasoning here just seems.. Weird to me. You said you don't mind lynching a VT D1, but you didn't want to be the one that put the hammer down. To me, it looked like you wanted to appear to be willing to lynch, but didn't want your hands dirty, so you left it up to someone else to do the hammer.

Just seems fishy to me.

On a side note, maybe the bad emotions are apart of the 7 deadly sins? (Aka Envy, pride, etc). Just speculation.

[MudPuppy]

OK, I'm sure I posted here, but the internet says otherwise.

Pure luck of course.

I totally knew that was going to happen.
Not a bad result for a mislynch!!!

MP, did you know on D1, that Zivel & NoS were lovers, or is it just gloating?

I am 99% sure he was being sarcastic.

Yes, it was sarcasm... which I know doesn't always come across on forums very well. I had no clue of their relationship. I also wasn't familiar with the Lover role/attribute and had to go look it up.

[MudPuppy]

Kinda surprised we haven't had more discussion after that eventful night. I'll start with my reads (none very strong):

1.) jonty125 - I see him as a scummarining candidate. Has done very little posting while not providing a reason for his inactivity.
3.) TheForgivenOne - Not terribly active either but more quality in his posts... one of my stronger town reads.
4.) pancakemix - Had a few quality posts. Thought the D2 vote on virus right off the bat seemed premature and based on a somewhat weak argument.
6.) Whatsausage - Good activity with quality posts... one of my stronger town reads.
7.) virus90 - I've been largely in agreement with his analysis and have mostly a town read. Take on PCM's accusation: a) no real issue with virus's IB vote; fast bandwagon seemed odd to me too; b) "pressure" comment was followed by a razz emoticon - I don't see it as him saying he was seriously pressured; c) "lynch for the sake of lynching" claim could be real... but lynching a VT was also the general consensus of just about everyone but the two players up for lynching.
8.) Iron Butterfly - He's a tough one that I keep wavering on. He's posted quality opinions but did find his request for thoughts without giving his own a bit odd (as did drake) but I chalked it up to being a valid investigative approach and likely part of his meta, which I'm not familiar with. The thing I never got was his statement that "Zivel is by far the scummiest for everything stated." IB, I'd love to hear your take on jonty's activity, or lack thereof, and compare it to Zivel's.
10.) drake_259 - He's been on me a bit and I thought he would be towards my scummier reads after he was saved from the noose with the fast bandwagon which included 3 votes against Zivel in just over 90 minutes (drake, IB, pancake). However, I haven't been able to put together a strong Team Drake coordinated bandwagon theory against Zivel since I don't think there are enough scum in this game to really "coordinate" anything. He's definitely on my radar but not as strongly as I thought he was going to be.

So, I am unsure where to go from here... but these are my thoughts for whatever they're worth. If I had to choose someone to focus on, it would be between IB & jonty.

[Iron Butterfly]

Actually I have made my thoughts apparent the whole game, which is why I wanted other peoples thoughts. i think the difference between jonty and Zivel is that Zivel made a lot of newbie mistakes.

By my reckoning we have 2 mafia and 6 town unless jak has decided to make the game even crazier. In my eyes that would effect the game balance wise though. I would think we have a cop and other Prs left especially with a Doc that was third party.

[MudPuppy]

Actually I have made my thoughts apparent the whole game, which is why I wanted other peoples thoughts. i think the difference between jonty and Zivel is that Zivel made a lot of newbie mistakes.

Yes, I concur you've made your opine known throughout... it was just that one post that seemed a bit odd to me... but really isn't an issue as I think it is more just your style (at times).

I'm still not getting the distinction between your read on Zivel and jonty, though. What specific newbie mistakes did Zivel make? Is jonty scummarining too? If not, what specifically has he done differently? To me their play looks very similar, except that Zivel explained his inactivity was due to RL distractions. jonty seems quite a bit more active on the Mafia forums and I would have expected more posts from him in this game.

Jonty, would you agree that you have been inactive? If so, why?

[jonty125]

Jonty, would you agree that you have been inactive? If so, why?

No, I'll agree it took me a while to post D2, because I remember typing out a post but it's not here, which I kinda said in my other post. And I have posted on most if not all other RL days.

[pancakemix]

yes pancakemix, it was meant as a lynch because of the lynch.
i was pretty sure that they where both town thats why i voted IB in the first place. with deadline getting (awfully) close i decided that it was useless to vote on IB, and though nobody specificly asked i felt i had to vote for 1 of the 2 cases. For flavor my preference was to vote drake, since his emotion was "not possitive", but some others pointed out to not play the mod/flavor but look for scum signs. and well i was pretty much convinced that they both where /are town i decided to put my vote on zivel then since he could be considered more scummy if you want to read it that way. Although not pressured, i felt like i had to vote. and im sure if i didnt vote and we had a no lynch (=no information), you or someone else would blame me for voting IB and not voting one of the 2. thats how the game works...
Since i think its ok for town to have a VT die night 1 i am still ok with my decision. and it sucks that the (3th party??? why 3th party?) doc was killed but well i had no clue, cant blame myself for not knowing, and i think you cannot blame me for that either.
so i was one of the people who voted zivel? YES
did i not want to take responsibility? NO - i am responsible, just like the rest, and as i said in a previous post i dont hold the switcher accountable for the lynch. so your blue quoting stuff i dont agree with that at all.
i only meant to say that i leveled the playing field, made it a tie. and only 1 person had to change to finish the day and make the lynch.
as can be seen from the announcements like 100 min remaining it was the time to take these steps, to assure the lynch indeed. but if i wanted a lynch so badly i could have voted drake and have it done with...

But why? That really just comes off as odd to me because you're saying you wanted the lynch even though you were sure Zivel was town. "Feeling like you have to" roughly equates to bandwagoning, and contrary to what you posit is worse than not contributing. I disagree with your flavor assessment as well, because at some point you have to take it into account. It cannot always be disregarded. The point of that theory is not solely "look at what is scummy". It's "look at what's scummy, and we'll discuss flavor when it's important". Either way it's a fallacy to say it was a deciding factor in choosing between the two because you didn't have to vote.

I'm not blaming you for Zivel's death or the doc's death. What I'm saying is you wanted a lynch but you didn't want it on your hands. Or at the very least you didn't want people pointing to you when the time came to talk about it. Why "level the playing field"? Why make it a tie? These are things that don't really mesh. You want a lynch but you don't...

...which is why I think it has to do with the persons involved. You COULD have just voted drake. You didn't, and that strikes me as odd. Why? Obviously your motivation was not just a lynch, it was the lynch you wanted. I'm almost certain there's more to this than you're letting on, and it involves drake in some way.

[MudPuppy]

Jonty, would you agree that you have been inactive? If so, why?

No, I'll agree it took me a while to post D2, because I remember typing out a post but it's not here, which I kinda said in my other post. And I have posted on most if not all other RL days.

While you have made posts, there has been little substance. Here are ALL your posts since the joke phase (barely broke 100 words) but your 6 posts can be boiled down to 5 words: "Drake overreacted; Anger isn't good." Is there nothing else you can add???:
3/11:

I recall jak as mod. And there was a town survivor, and "The Cop" and there were two. I remember this causing a lot of anger at the time.

3/12:

Yeah, I echo what virus says it doesn't need a genius to work out with more town than scum that we're likely to mislynch today.

3/13:

With the clock running down, and drake's over reaction. vote drake because we need a claim.

3/14:

+1.
In other news, my vote stays 1 - WCS we lynch a VT. 2 - Anger, I'd SPECULATE that can't be good, but I could be wrong, but number 1 is my main reason.

3/15:

Then scum can speedhammer, this is claim-time.

3/18:

OK, I'm sure I posted here, but the internet says otherwise....
MP, did you know on D1, that Zivel & NoS were lovers, or is it just gloating?