Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

by **NoSurvivors** on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:53 pm

Shouldn't we hear from soundy, not chap? Or..

by **NoSurvivors** on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:54 pm

Shoot I meant to say soundy THEN chap. -face palm-

by **DoomYoshi** on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:10 pm

I dont really care what order, as long as we get all the reports,so this day can continue.

by **aage** on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:51 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
aage wrote:I was blocked. Who did this?

So you and droz were both blocked last night and there was no kill?

Why am I not surprised

Haha, funny. Even if I were so stupid to claim this as scum, I wasn't here during the entire 'night' so I doubt I could have sent in a kill. No, I personally suspect a doc save, the only two dead doc-related roles were scum with the "doc switch" implying there is/are more.

by **Rodion** on Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:27 pm

I have my own suspicions as well, but first we need to get everyone to claim their results or lack thereof.

by **strike wolf** on Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:41 pm

Even if I did busdrive aage that does not affect the fact that he claims to have been role blocked on a night with no kill. of course with multiple no kill nights even I have to admit that it by itself is not much of a case. as far as my actions, I do not see an advantage for anyone but mafia that would come from me claiming actions. on the other hand I can see advantage of not claiming my actions so unless my actions appear to affect someone else's results, I have no intention of revealing who I switched. I feel like there was something else I wished to address but I can't remember now.

by **soundman** on Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:43 pm

NoSurvivors wrote:Shouldn't we hear from sound, not chap? Or..

NoSurvivors wrote:Shoot I meant to say sound THEN chap. -face palm-

Hear what from me? Chap is the one that would have info for us.

I went back to Day 5 to find Doom's case against Droz. Could you repost your case, Doom? I'm a little confused on the details.

by / on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:54 pm

aage wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
aage wrote:I was blocked. Who did this?

So you and droz were both blocked last night and there was no kill?

Why am I not surprised

Haha, funny. Even if I were so stupid to claim this as scum, I wasn't here during the entire 'night' so I doubt I could have sent in a kill. No, I personally suspect a doc save, the only two dead doc-related roles were scum with the "doc switch" implying there is/are more.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, are you saying you could not have sent in an kill, but did send in your action ahead of time. Or that you didn't send in an action, but somehow know that you were blocked?
Did you lose your vote?

by **VioIet** on Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:26 pm

/ wrote:
aage wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
aage wrote:I was blocked. Who did this?

So you and droz were both blocked last night and there was no kill?

Why am I not surprised

Haha, funny. Even if I were so stupid to claim this as scum, I wasn't here during the entire 'night' so I doubt I could have sent in a kill. No, I personally suspect a doc save, the only two dead doc-related roles were scum with the "doc switch" implying there is/are more.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, are you saying you could not have sent in an kill, but did send in your action ahead of time. Or that you didn't send in an action, but somehow know that you were blocked?
Did you lose your vote?

QFT. I think aage contradicted himself here. You wouldn't know that you were blocked, unless you sent in an action. So the point about not being able to send in a kill is moot.

by **aage** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:49 am

VioIet wrote:
/ wrote:
aage wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
aage wrote:I was blocked. Who did this?

So you and droz were both blocked last night and there was no kill?

Why am I not surprised

Haha, funny. Even if I were so stupid to claim this as scum, I wasn't here during the entire 'night' so I doubt I could have sent in a kill. No, I personally suspect a doc save, the only two dead doc-related roles were scum with the "doc switch" implying there is/are more.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, are you saying you could not have sent in an kill, but did send in your action ahead of time. Or that you didn't send in an action, but somehow know that you were blocked?
Did you lose your vote?

QFT. I think aage contradicted himself here. You wouldn't know that you were blocked, unless you sent in an action. So the point about not being able to send in a kill is moot.

No, I didn't send in an action. For some reason Edoc still sent me a pm saying I was blocked. As far as I'm aware I still have my vote, but let's see if that's true. Vote doom for testing purposes.

by **NoSurvivors** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:29 am

soundman wrote:
NoSurvivors wrote:Shouldn't we hear from sound, not chap? Or..

NoSurvivors wrote:Shoot I meant to say sound THEN chap. -face palm-

Hear what from me? Chap is the one that would have info for us.

I went back to Day 5 to find Doom's case against Droz. Could you repost your case, Doom? I'm a little confused on the details.

aaaand im a numpty.. i keep switchng you and strike around -.- i keep thinkin youre the busdriver for some reason.

by **edocsil** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:23 pm

Chapcrap has told me he no longer has the time to play, his role isn't worth replacing, and I have no one handy to replace with in any event.

Chapcrap ~ Francis of Assisi Saint ~ One-Shot Sensor has been modkilled

There are 17 alive, 9 to lynch.

by **strike wolf** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:43 pm

well this changes things.

by **Rodion** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:44 pm

Interesting. He didn't say his power was 1-shot in order to draw kills/roleblocks since he was, essentially, a VT.

We still have 3 anti-town on his list. If Safari does not have anything for us, I think we ought to pick one among Aage, Jonty and Droz.

by **aage** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:47 pm

edocsil wrote:One-Shot Sensor

Hmm. So apparently he was lying about his role, but it doesn't necessarily mean that his first list is complete bullcrap. I don't know what 'sensor' means but I guess it can match with the ability he claimed. One-shot only makes it a more plausible role because let's face it, it would be super overpowered. I like the way he claimed to have the ability every round, scum might have wasted some power roles on that. Nice move either way.

It doesn't help us today, though. Strike won't claim and Chap apparently had nothing anyway. I reread the last two pages and noticed I missed something in rodion's post:

Squirrel said he could find out whether someone is an angel as a collateral effect of his role.

So there's more. Since we have not much else to go on and you're claiming more powers here, I would appreciate it if you were to share what you found, if anything.

Fastposted by Strike and Rodion

by **DoomYoshi** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:58 pm

@soundman: there are a couple of probabilty problems pointing to him being scum:
a) it is unlikely to have 5 investigative roles in a game (confirmed sensor, confirmed tracker, Rodion's investigation, saf semi-confirmed cop, and then the watcher)
b) due to chap's reveal, there is about a 50% chance he is scum
c)a town watcher is an OP role, and is very rare IMO.
d) it was unlikely that both droz and chap would be blocked on the same night

Second are the actually scummy things droz did:
claiming for no reason
refusing to report who he watched; even though it was obvious that he either watched chap or is anti-town

by **DoomYoshi** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:59 pm

Oops, forgot the associative case. Aage and droz seem to be on the same team and aage is also a likely scum.

by **gregwolf121** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:41 pm

hats off to chap, he played up his role well,

by **aage** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:34 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:@soundman: there are a couple of probabilty problems pointing to him being scum:
a) it is unlikely to have 5 investigative roles in a game (confirmed sensor, confirmed tracker, Rodion's investigation, saf semi-confirmed cop, and then the watcher)
b) due to chap's reveal, there is about a 50% chance he is scum
c)a town watcher is an OP role, and is very rare IMO.
d) it was unlikely that both droz and chap would be blocked on the same night

Second are the actually scummy things droz did:
claiming for no reason
refusing to report who he watched; even though it was obvious that he either watched chap or is anti-town

In response to D, we don't know if Chap was blocked or if he was playing a ruse, so that point is moot. Other points are valid, although I never consider town watcher an overly OP role.

DoomYoshi wrote:Oops, forgot the associative case. Aage and droz seem to be on the same team and aage is also a likely scum.

Care to explain why I must be on Droz's team, or should I just take your word for it? I get that you think me likely scum because of Chap's ability.

Sorry for not making very constructive posts so far, new years start a bit messy and I have a bunch of other stuff on my mind.

by **Rodion** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:41 pm

aage wrote:So there's more. Since we have not much else to go on and you're claiming more powers here, I would appreciate it if you were to share what you found, if anything.

Fastposted by Strike and Rodion

I don't see the benefit of claiming. My data is known by Gregwolf and that should be enough as long as he lives. Besides, it's not like I'm being scummy and voted until L-2.

DoomYoshi wrote:@soundman: there are a couple of probabilty problems pointing to him being scum:
a) it is unlikely to have 5 investigative town roles in a game (confirmed sensor, confirmed tracker, Rodion's investigation, saf semi-confirmed cop, and then the watcher)

Fixed your post.

As far as the roleblocks go, the scene mentions snow getting in the way of multiple humans, so I was thinking mafia had a "1-shot global human-only roleblock" that for some reason did not block all humans (remember that Edoc said "most"). I can believe that a bunch of people got roleblocked today, so I wouldn't lynch based on that.

Other than that power, to me it seems mafia has 1 traditional roleblocker and 1 vote stealer (that may or may not roleblock depending on whether you completely trust Droz). Mafia is doing one of two things:
a) wasting their votesteal+roleblock to keep the town watcher in the dark so they can safely traditionally-roleblock our most dangerous threats (Chap, for instance)
b) wasting their votesteal on their scum buddy while he claims he also got roleblocked and thus is not forced to name their traditional roleblocker (the one who was supposedly blocking Chap).

Either way, I'm considering whether we should let Droz live longer. I'll explain:

a) allowing Droz to live longer will keep one of mafia's 2 potential roleblockers constantly busy, meaning (the rest of) town can only suffer 1 block. The only way for mafia to have their 2 roleblocks is by having Droz not lose his vote and claim he targeted someone unimportant. The downside is that we'd have to constantly name a player to be watched (as in "directing night actions") so either mafia wastes one of the 2 potential roleblocks or Droz gets to watch him, effectively protecting him from harm.

b) lynching Droz "frees" up mafia to use their second roleblock on a second townie. That is a problem for obvious reasons. The benefit is that we don't need to puclicly tell mafia who we believe to be our biggest power role. I'm not sure that is a big enough benefit, since it should be obvious by now.

c) alternatively, we could keep Droz alive without telling him who to watch, but punishing him with death if he watches the wrong player. If we go that route, one of 3 things happen:
c.1) Droz continues wasting the votesteal, meaning (rest of town) can only suffer 1 roleblock.
c.2) Droz is not blocked and targets correctly: he gets to catch one mafia should the target be killed/roleblocked.
c.3) Droz is not blocked and targets incorrectly: he gets lynched.

Just brainstorming here, feel free to add or give input. By the way, if Saf does not have a guilty and should we not lynch Droz, I'd pick Aage before Jonty.

by **DRoZ** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:24 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:@soundman: there are a couple of probabilty problems pointing to him being scum:
a) it is unlikely to have 5 investigative roles in a game (confirmed sensor, confirmed tracker, Rodion's investigation, saf semi-confirmed cop, and then the watcher)
b) due to chap's reveal, there is about a 50% chance he is scum
c)a town watcher is an OP role, and is very rare IMO.
d) it was unlikely that both droz and chap would be blocked on the same night

Second are the actually scummy things droz did:
claiming for no reason
refusing to report who he watched; even though it was obvious that he either watched chap or is anti-town

-My status as a watcher has been corroborated. Arguing my alignment is valid, but arguing against my abilities makes for a much weaker position.
-Where does the "about 50%" number come from...
-I believe it is obvious now that chap was not blocked, he was just trying to keep up the charade.

-I gave my reasoning for claiming, there were a number of votes on me already and very little in the way of other prospective targets. Waiting for a closer number to lynch would only waste time and leave us with precious little left to find a suitable target.
-There are tons of reasons not to report on someone I watched, if someone is visited and nothing negative happens, it could be detrimental to say who was there. There is no reason to let the mafia know who I had already watched unless that information is vital to helping the town.

by **DoomYoshi** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:44 pm

DRoZ wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:@soundman: there are a couple of probabilty problems pointing to him being scum:
a) it is unlikely to have 5 investigative roles in a game (confirmed sensor, confirmed tracker, Rodion's investigation, saf semi-confirmed cop, and then the watcher)
b) due to chap's reveal, there is about a 50% chance he is scum
c)a town watcher is an OP role, and is very rare IMO.
d) it was unlikely that both droz and chap would be blocked on the same night

Second are the actually scummy things droz did:
claiming for no reason
refusing to report who he watched; even though it was obvious that he either watched chap or is anti-town

-My status as a watcher has been corroborated. Arguing my alignment is valid, but arguing against my abilities makes for a much weaker position.
-Where does the "about 50%" number come from...
-I believe it is obvious now that chap was not blocked, he was just trying to keep up the charade.

-I gave my reasoning for claiming, there were a number of votes on me already and very little in the way of other prospective targets. Waiting for a closer number to lynch would only waste time and leave us with precious little left to find a suitable target.
-There are tons of reasons not to report on someone I watched, if someone is visited and nothing negative happens, it could be detrimental to say who was there. There is no reason to let the mafia know who I had already watched unless that information is vital to helping the town.

I was meaning that it would be too much to have 5 town watchers. I am not denying you have a watch ability.

Saf, Jonty, Soundman, Aage, Droz, Strike
3 of 6 on this list are anti-town. Hence, 50%, but I would argue that saf is either town or uber-gambiting.

Yes, I agree that it is entirely possible that he was not blocked. But mafia didn't know he was 1-shot (unless they have a role-cop, which I already believe they do). Which means that they chose to roleblock you instead of him. However, roleblocking a watcher doesn't make sense if you know who he is targetting, right? And mafia knew you would be watching chap. So they could just target anyone else and not have to waste a roleblock on you. FIshy.

Both of these defenses are wrong. You can keep repeating stuff, but that doesn't make it any more correct.

by **DoomYoshi** on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:49 pm

Anyways, Rodion, this seems like too risky of a gambit. If saf is killed, we have to kill droz anyways after, so why not do it first?
However, there are worse imaginable scenarios.

unvote vote aage

by **VioIet** on Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:36 am

DRoZ wrote:
-There are tons of reasons not to report on someone I watched, if someone is visited and nothing negative happens, it could be detrimental to say who was there. There is no reason to let the mafia know who I had already watched unless that information is vital to helping the town.

I agree with this part of Droz's post.

Since chap is no longer in the game, it doesn't matter at this point who is on the bandwagon or not. Even when he was in the game, it didn't matter. That was all part of the charade.

Very well-played Chap.

At this point, I am pretty sure that aage and jonty are scum. Soundman may be the third.

Vote Aage

by **DoomYoshi** on Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:16 am

Vio, let's just say we are playing a game in which there is a confirmed innocent child. The mod comes out and says that player x is town and that if player x dies, town loses.

Then let's imagine that the watcher says "I don't want to report who I watched". Does that still make sense? It doesn't. Now my example may be extreme, but it's not too far from what actually happened.

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