[Official] Wheel of Time:EotW [8/14] D4:Twisted Pattern

[StorrZerg]

1. you can't like his read on mets, because there was never a read on mets.

2, you can't like his read on me, because your town reading me.

3. you side with him on tonk for his scum read of ":GT - gt does seem kinda scummy to me. Not really getting a town read from him."

so yes, im calling you out for liking his reads, when they are not describing anything, at most you can say you like who he is calling town/scum, yet the first 3 that come to mind for me have no substance or differ from your reads.

So yes, i want you to explain what reads you like, cause clearly im not getting it, and im calling you out for bs

[HotShot53]

12.Metsfanmax - Got into a big fight with storr day 1, from which storr town reads him. Voted streaker because he wanted to just go along with whomever storr wanted to lynch (sheeping),

A moment's reflection should point out how obviously wrong this is. The entire basis of my play up to that point was that Storr was scum, and that we were likely to hit town. I said that I wanted Storr's target to get lynched precisely because I expected that Storr's target would flip town, bolstering my point that Storr was scum so that we could lynch him on D2.

then after the claim unvoted and gave reasons he believe the claim, even though wing stated definitively that it was a fake claim.

Storr answered this point sufficiently. I am not an idiot. The last thing I would do as scum there is to draw attention to myself by unvoting when I had already switched on to Storr's case and said I wanted Storr's pick to be lynched. Streaker was clearly going to die at that point unless something miraculous happened, so what did it gain me?

More than once I've seen someone claim, and people say "that's a reasonable claim" and everyone jumps off the wagon. It very well could have happened yesterday, if wing hadn't insisted that the claim was fake. So, it didn't gain you anything in this case... but it could have if you could have convinced others his claim was reasonable.

Makes the statement that we are going to lynch storr or marashu today, anything else is wasting time. Although on day 1, he said "Also, lol at your argument against lone voters. That's a great attitude: never start a case against someone new, just sheep on what other people are doing."

Yes, and I acknowledged that there might be a seeming contradiction between the two stances. I don't think there was in context, because I was actually going hard against Storr and making a serious, game-long case out of it; most of the other people today have made half-hearted votes and not defended them further even as the day evolved. But even if I did change my stance when the circumstances changed (something I try not to do), that's not alignment indicative; it doesn't take being scum to want to be right.

The difference is who the cases are on... yesterday when you said to look at new cases, the main case was on streaker. Today when you don't want new cases, it's on storr and marashu, both of whom I think are town.

When I gave him a FOS for the statement, he defends himself by stating "basically no one is doubting my town affiliation at this point in the game", doing what he didn't like storr doing of stating he's confirmed town basically.

I don't like saying someone is confirmed town when the "confirmation" is themselves saying it a lot based on disputed circumstances. I have been exonerated as town by multiple players (implicitly or explicitly) this game, without any real dispute about those circumstances, and you are one of the only people who is doubting it at this time. So the point here is that you'd better have a good reason to go after me.

Just because others think you are town doesn't make you town. Only storr has really hard defended that you're town.

Switches his vote back to marashu by quoting marashu's giving his win condition.

I obviously intended not to say why I am voting based on that, but since you are saying that your win condition is consistent with his, I will not say that it is not consistent with mine. (Maybe you are both scum?)

Or maybe some groups of town have different win condition statements than others. Remember the last game where win conditions were allowed to be discussed, where town all have variations so it couldn't be used as an insta-win pass phrase?

[Marashu]

@ marashu, why do you vote got tonka'd. we have 1 day, no one votes him yet. you dont make a case, seems like a waste of vote & time
its not that i disagree, i already stated that GT is on my scum list 2, so i would be fine with pressuring him, but you dont seem to make an effort. besides your list post was mwah to me. many reads i disagreed with.

marashu is fair game for a lynch in my opinion. i wouldnt mind a second claim, preferably from talapus (or GT).

Sorry, didn't really have much time to build a case that early in the morning (my 6AM posts need to be quick and short). I want to push for GT because a) too many people are defending Storr for him to be a possible lynch, b) I don't really want to lynch the other 2 people at 1 vote each, and c) of the other people I think are scummy, I think the one most likely to be lynched is GT.

I agree I would be a fairly safe mislynch. If it is what the town is going for, I hope that somebody claims by the start of D3 so that the relationship day visits can be tested (maybe also test 2 people visiting each other?). And mitch, when I flip with blue letters on my name, I hope you understand that yes, I did try to visit you, so you not getting a notice that I tried and you weren't there is not grounds for thinking someone is scum.

As for my case on GT, well...

Townies really dont have to stick themselves out there all the time to not get mislynched, they just need people to know create nothing cases on them and then get bandwagoned.

And yet on the same page as he posts this, Storr tells him to vote (actually, they have a big conversation about how he's doing nothing but talking circles and Storr tells him he needs to take action) so he jumps on my wagon because it's odd that I didn't consider something and share with the class.

I was saying since i wasnt one of the power scum characters, I wouldn't be a lynch/shot candidate.

Unless you think we shouldn't go after power scum, in which case I guess I would come up with a different defense.

This is such a weird quote to me. It's wrong on a few levels. First, the argument of not being a candidate because he's not a claimed villain, well, it implies that we should ignore goons to hunt powerscum when we don't know whether or not they are all powerscum (Streaker didn't flip a role, so for all we know he could have been a scum roleblocker). He is also projecting and putting words into Wing's mouth by implying that Wing doesn't want to hunt powerscum (and therefore does not want to hunt scum). Third, he's really driving home that he does not believe name claims matter, because people will not claim villain names - but his case on me was that I did not consider Storr to be a certain flavour character. Finally, his whole powerscum discussion thing is weird because we don't know if named villains even exist, but he is likely a power role if not a powerscum role or else I feel like he would have made the commuter trade.

Speaking of, he claims he visited Storr because it was an inactive at the time. So he didn't know what the visit did, but wanted to make sure it wouldn't really be noticed. I think it's kind of weird.

Anyway, GT isn't my top scum pick, but he's the one who I feel is most likely to be scum out of those that people can agree on.

fp'd a whole lot by HS, Storr, and mets.

[HotShot53]

1. you can't like his read on mets, because there was never a read on mets.

2, you can't like his read on me, because your town reading me.

3. you side with him on tonk for his scum read of ":GT - gt does seem kinda scummy to me. Not really getting a town read from him."

so yes, im calling you out for liking his reads, when they are not describing anything, at most you can say you like who he is calling town/scum, yet the first 3 that come to mind for me have no substance or differ from your reads.

So yes, i want you to explain what reads you like, cause clearly im not getting it, and im calling you out for bs

Suppose Storr does claim Padan Fain. What would you do then?

A world does not exist where Fain is pro-town. Storr would fake claim if he is Fain. If we do get a name claim out of him, then we need to decide if he's telling the truth or not.

People voting for storr need to wake up and not be stupid or Ill just lynch all of you

Ok, so other reads (will be quick impressions since I need to leave in like 15 minutes).
virus - I like his reads. I'd lean town with virus.
Wing - I'm having a tough time reading Wing. My gut is saying town. Still wondering about his certainty about Streaker's fakeclaim.
mtam - I think that mtam is probably town. I feel like he would be explaining his plays more if he were scum so that people could keep up with his thought process, instead of doing what he's doing to rock the boat and get scum to slip.
mitch - I feel like mitch is town.
Storr - Still leaning anti-town with him. Worried that if he is left unchecked for too long it will spell a town loss, which is why if he is anti-town, he's the better pick to get rid of early. My vote's staying on him - even if not a lynch, I would like to see a name claim from him.
HS - I really would like to hear more from him.
GT - gt does seem kinda scummy to me. Not really getting a town read from him.
DD - If Storr is scum DD is town. I can't see them being scumbuddies. If, somehow, Storr is town, then the way he was tunneling Storr seems weird to me. But I totally understand his apprehension about Storr. DD is neutral to me.
Mets - The comment about today's lynch being Storr or myself, well, I think it's weird and stymies discussion. I'm leaning scum with him.
IB - IB is playing pro-town, and I feel like it's legit, so I think he's town.
Tal - was skeptical about him at first. His going into more detail about his D1 action has eased those. Neutral leaning town.

Here are his recent reads. No, I don't agree with all of them, but I like his reasoning on most of them. How did you miss the mets read when it's in the same post as your quoted read of GT? He says he still leans scum on mets. His read on you is the main one I disagreed with, otherwise I think his logic is good.

[StorrZerg]

quoting his 1 liners, and saying /agree still isn't doing anything.

[Marashu]

The difference is who the cases are on... yesterday when you said to look at new cases, the main case was on streaker. Today when you don't want new cases, it's on storr and marashu, both of whom I think are town.

I hadn't even considered that. Was leaning scum with mets, but now I feel that he's very likely scum (difference in magnitude of certainty). Hmm. I think I would be willing to follow mtam on that one. But I still think that GT is the scum more likely to get steam going today, so my vote stays for now.

Or maybe some groups of town have different win condition statements than others. Remember the last game where win conditions were allowed to be discussed, where town all have variations so it couldn't be used as an insta-win pass phrase?

I considered that. Which is why I made sure to be clear on what was also not in my win condition, specifically, it made no mention to destroying enemies of the Light. To win, we need to get to the end, and I think they need to stop us. It's possible that those who are not on the journey (for the record, those who make it to the Eye of the World are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Lan, Egwene, Nynaeve, Loial, and you could make the argument for Bela - I'm actually kind of curious about rish's opinions on Bela. Argument could also be made for Thom, because he starts out with them on the journey but ends up in a Myrdraal fight partway along) would have a different win condition that is also pro-town.
fp'd by Storr

[Metsfanmax]

More than once I've seen someone claim, and people say "that's a reasonable claim" and everyone jumps off the wagon. It very well could have happened yesterday, if wing hadn't insisted that the claim was fake. So, it didn't gain you anything in this case... but it could have if you could have convinced others his claim was reasonable.

I made zero attempt to convince anyone else to unvote at that point, and even said I could have been convinced to put my vote back if we got more from WIng than "that claim is fake." If I was going to go for it, I would have gone for it.

The difference is who the cases are on... yesterday when you said to look at new cases, the main case was on streaker. Today when you don't want new cases, it's on storr and marashu, both of whom I think are town.

You are completely wrong. I do want new cases. When I made that comment about the Storr versus Marashu lynch, I made it because [i]no one was making new cases[i]. Instead of interesting things happening, people were just idling, and the only discussion was about Storr and Marashu, making other votes literally worthless. Only me, IB, Storr, and Wing have been talking for most of D2, and I was urging people that if they were going to idle, they may as well idle with their vote in a useful place. When I had my vote on Storr while everyone else was moving towards Streaker, I was constantly defending it and generating discussion. That's what I want. Now you and Marashu are getting more into it, which I approve of (though obviously I disagree with your position), and so you should feel free to vote where you want. It is the people who are not actually arguing their cases that are wasting their votes, and those are the people that ought to be pressured more.

Or maybe some groups of town have different win condition statements than others. Remember the last game where win conditions were allowed to be discussed, where town all have variations so it couldn't be used as an insta-win pass phrase?

Naturally I've considered that possibility. I don't believe that is what is going on here (though of course I concede that I am not certain). Do not want to say more at present.

[Marashu]

Well, mets, there is a new case now. And while there is some division about people who believe my claim and people who don't, as well as a division of seeing Storr as town vs anti-town, GT is scum in pretty much every world. Wing has already told Storr that he's ok with changing the vote to GT if that's the direction it's going. I think there is still time before deadline to get this wagon up to the needed 8.

@Storr - are the odds of HS vs GT being scum comparable? If so, I would push for you to change your vote to GT. You know I'm not the strongest scumhunter, but I've made my case, and feel that not only is GT scum, but he's the most likely choice for us to lynch scum.

[got tonkaed]

The entire case against me is Marashu trying to avoid getting lynched.

[Iron Butterfly]

The entire case against me is Marashu trying to avoid getting lynched.

Yeh and your one sentence offers alot to the conversation not to mention clarity. You are one of those who has posted enough to say they post and then disappear while others do the arguing.

I would lynch you over Mars if push comes to shove. A lot of shoving lately.

Vote got Tonkaed

[Metsfanmax]

those who make it to the Eye of the World are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Lan, Egwene, Nynaeve, Loial, and you could make the argument for Bela ... Argument could also be made for Thom

I am in that list of people, and if you are suggesting you are too, then it doesn't make sense for you to have a different wincon.

[Metsfanmax]

As for my case on GT, well...

Townies really dont have to stick themselves out there all the time to not get mislynched, they just need people to know create nothing cases on them and then get bandwagoned.

And yet on the same page as he posts this, Storr tells him to vote (actually, they have a big conversation about how he's doing nothing but talking circles and Storr tells him he needs to take action) so he jumps on my wagon because it's odd that I didn't consider something and share with the class.

I was saying since i wasnt one of the power scum characters, I wouldn't be a lynch/shot candidate.

Unless you think we shouldn't go after power scum, in which case I guess I would come up with a different defense.

This is such a weird quote to me. It's wrong on a few levels. First, the argument of not being a candidate because he's not a claimed villain, well, it implies that we should ignore goons to hunt powerscum when we don't know whether or not they are all powerscum (Streaker didn't flip a role, so for all we know he could have been a scum roleblocker). He is also projecting and putting words into Wing's mouth by implying that Wing doesn't want to hunt powerscum (and therefore does not want to hunt scum). Third, he's really driving home that he does not believe name claims matter, because people will not claim villain names - but his case on me was that I did not consider Storr to be a certain flavour character. Finally, his whole powerscum discussion thing is weird because we don't know if named villains even exist, but he is likely a power role if not a powerscum role or else I feel like he would have made the commuter trade.

Speaking of, he claims he visited Storr because it was an inactive at the time. So he didn't know what the visit did, but wanted to make sure it wouldn't really be noticed. I think it's kind of weird.

Most of this doesn't follow. For example, it's pretty safe to say that named villains do exist -- it would be too weird not to in a game like this, and I know for sure that at least one does. And you're entirely misreading the post, and so did Wing. Storr's question is, "why shouldn't we lynch GT?" GT's response should be properly read as: the local flavor expert listed the bad guys we should be watching out for, and I'm not one of them. Wing misreads this as saying that GT thinks Marashu is saying GT is not Mordeth or Fain, which Marashu wasn't saying; he only even mentioned those two names because we were discussing Storr. I mean, this was an obvious misread on Wing's part. Then GT clarifies, and his second sentence is essentially saying "the extent of the power scum are Mordeth and Fain, and I am not Mordeth or Fain, therefore you shouldn't worry about me." Now, this is pretty thin; it's basically saying "I'm not scum because I'm not scum." So that's kind of questionable; a legitimate case could be made that there's no good reason to think Mordeth and Fain are the only possible named bad guys. But none of the reasons you are reading him in a poor light for this quote check out.

Regarding the first quote: I also don't follow the reasoning you're giving. GT is saying that whether or not you get mislynched has less to do with how well you're defending yourself than with whether people start stupid cases against you. This is entirely orthogonal to the accusation that you "slipped" by not suggesting that Storr might be Fain or Mordeth. The relevant question is whether the case has merit; if it doesn't, then sure it'll be a mislynch, but we won't know until after it's done. I mean, the only way to read GT's quote that doesn't trigger your accusation is to say that we should never vote anyone, because it might end in a mislynch. That is clearly not what he is saying.

[Metsfanmax]

Also, on the last page Hotshot is clearly town reading Marashu and says that he agrees with most of what Marashu has said and done. Is there any other player in this camp, who generally has agreed with Marashu's contributions so far, just so I can have context?

[StorrZerg]

i can't even decipher what hotshot likes because he is so fucking vague.

[Iron Butterfly]

LOL and Im bloody lost.

[StorrZerg]

unvote
vote got tonk

really dont have a case on him.

might switch back to marash tomorrow, ill try and get something done on this tomorrow morning, to drunk now.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Its really annoying me that Tal is avoiding the complaints of pure mechanics talk by being completely silent. Too late now, but can we pressure him with votes tomorrow to get something constructive please. DD's town cred from D1 is starting to run out with me too.

This is the only quote from GT that should be used as his answer to why he shouldnt be lynched. The rest was just unclear rubbish. It doesnt say dont lynch me I'm town, it says well I havent done anything to make me mafia. Great, so were just supposed to believe it because you said so?

Because I am not a mafia member. Mafia players overread situations to try and bandwagon.

The only case toward me being scum would be that I was very inactive at the end of D1. The fact that I pretty much missed the deadline entirely, not just didn't vote streaker or defend him, should be evidence that my inactivity was RL based not game based.

Townies don't try to create cases where there aren't cases. Keep that in mind wing.

How long till deadline?

Mets I'm confused, are you against a GT lynch or are you just strongly pro a Mars lynch?

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Vote Count:

Marashu (4) - gotTonkaed, WCmdrG, Storr, madmitch, Mets, IB
Storr (0) - Marashu, IB, Mets
Mets (1) - mtamburini
Talapus (1) - virus90
GT (4) - Mars, Hotshot, IB, Storr
Hotshot (0) - Storr

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline July 11th.

Ib you didnt unvote before switching to Mars or GT, dont know if that matters
DD and Tal havent voted
Not sure where my vote is, probably on GT by now.

The way I see things, we have Storr + my vote, IB, Mets and Mtam who will be on to switch votes today. Possibly Virus if were lucky. Thats not enough swingvotes to lynch anyone. (GT and Mars will likely log on, but will vote each other at this point undoubtably)

[virus90]

i can switch indeed, need a claim from tonka. lynching him without claim would be a pity.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Vote Count:
With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline July 11th.

Rishaed - There are only 12 alive, so it only takes 7 to lynch!

We have enough swingvotes for that. Knew something wasnt adding up.

[StorrZerg]

I've moved wing to gt, be nice if we could get a more exact time for the lynch

[Metsfanmax]

@wing I do not see the case on GT at this point but I also do not have a town read on him. I am going to be flying soon and will not get back until maybe 9 PM EST. So do not count on me to switch.

[Iron Butterfly]

What is the deadline?

vote Mars

[HotShot53]

The entire case against me is Marashu trying to avoid getting lynched.

Even if that were true... I'd much rather lynch you as town than Marashu as town, since he has helped and will help a lot more than you have for sure. But since I am pretty sure Marashu is town, and I'm very doubtful if you are, I definitely think lynching marashu over you would be a mistake.

[StorrZerg]

Unvote
Vote marashu

switching wing back as well