Conquer Club

In a recent game I was playing, I was trying to go for Europe.

After someone else claimed Ukraine, and put armies there. I asked for them to be removed, but his response was to take the rest of his armies and place them in the Ukraine. He said he was doing this to annoy me, and not for any strategic benefit.

After fortifying for a few turns, I attack him in Ukraine and take it with 15 armies left. Then I fortify and move my armies to Northern Europe.

The next turn, the player in Africa attacks me to keep me from getting 5 extra troops. Although I wasn't holding Europe, the player in Africa cashes cards in, and suicides those troops on Northern Europe. The only benefit that he got was that I lost a lot of men. This caused me to soon be eliminated because I was so weak.

BTW: This was a regular board game of Risk.


How do I prevent this from happening again?

Don't go for Europe.

jiminski wrote:Don't go for Europe.

Good advice. Unless it is a team game or 1v1, you have very little chance of holding such a large continent with so many borders in such a central position. I've never seen anyone win from starting from Europe in a normal Standard game.

You say the guy holding Africa suicided on you. I beg to differ. You yourself said that it killed a lot of your armies. Therefore, for the player on Africa, it was clearly worth it, assuming he didn't leave himself too weak. Probably would need to know the exact circumstances better though...

jiminski wrote:Don't go for Europe.

RobinJ wrote:

jiminski wrote:Don't go for Europe.

Good advice. Unless it is a team game or 1v1, you have very little chance of holding such a large continent with so many borders in such a central position. I've never seen anyone win from starting from Europe in a normal Standard game.

You say the guy holding Africa suicided on you. I beg to differ. You yourself said that it killed a lot of your armies. Therefore, for the player on Africa, it was clearly worth it, assuming he didn't leave himself too weak. Probably would need to know the exact circumstances better though...

He was very weak after he suicided.

the key is to get them to suicide into someone else...you have to be very careful who you engage in chat, and how...if they suspect youre ordering them, you may very well find yourself with a bullseye....this game is as much psychological as it is purely strategic...if everyone attacks you you lose...if they all attack each other, you may win....find a way to make that happen...and avoid confrontation at all costs....your game depends upon it

the best way to deal with suicide players is to add them to your ignore list and you can also leave negetive feedback.
it's not cheating so you can't ask a mod to ban them.

also before leaving negative make sure that it's really a suicide case not just an attack that upsets you.

i've been in several games were people seemed suicidal but i've only left one neg about it. it was a 3 player situation were we were all roughly equal and 1 guy decided to crash his troops into mine without any hope of killing me. all he did was weaken us and the next turn the thirsd guy eliminated us. i wasn't a threat and i did not have the most troops (the 3rd guy did) and yet this individual suicided on me and spoiled the game.

also be careful especially on escalating games some people make suicide runs. sometimes the work sometmes they don't. i was in a game where i had about 35 troops to kill 20 from another player. with my 4 cards and his 5 i would have gotten at least 2 sets which would have lead to me cashing in lots of troops and winning the game. unfortuunatelly i had crappy dice and all i managed was to leave that guy with 3 troops and me with 5-6 terits with one troops in each. you could say i suicided on him but in fact i was just plain unlucky. this sometimes happens and is in no way a reasn to consider someone a suicider.

i tell u how i deal with suicidals for real now


i spend every fuckin army on the map and shove it up their suicidal ass then smack talk them ...then bitch slap the fucker...and then afterwards he goes on my ignore list

cheers!

chessplaya wrote:i tell u how i deal with suicidals for real now


i spend every fuckin army on the map and shove it up their suicidal ass then smack talk them ...then bitch slap the fucker...and then afterwards he goes on my ignore list

cheers!

#1. They didn't really care if they lost

#2. I was playing with people I know.

chessplaya is actually, as far as I can tell from my experience, 100% correct in this. If a player decides to suicide against you, and if you KNOW FOR SURE that this is what is happening, declare loudly that you're going to whip their ass and go all out against them. "Get in my way if you want to DIE," you say to the rest of the players, "but this ass is goin DOWN and nothing will stop me."

(This does, of course, assume that you have the advantage or at least near-parity... otherwise they would be "eliminating" you and not "suiciding.")

This MAY have two positive effects: 1) The other players will probably leave you alone to go about your crazy work. This saves you from the threat of elimination in the short term, to remove the one pressing immediate threat (the suicider) that will almost certainly cost you victory. 2) More unpredictibly, your actions may cause chaos on the board. Evacuating your continent/territories, you open it up to others to claim. A mad dash ensues. Positions are shifted and lost. Troops that were used to defend against you are redirected to attack other players. Conflict breaks out as a new equilibrium is sought, and at the end, everyone will end up weaker.

The point is to go insane. People get out of the way of the crazy. They give them what they want in order to stop them from hurting people. Listen to AAFitz when he says that this game is as much psychology as it is anything else. You can use that to your advantage. dugcarr1 was the best example of this: From round 1, he threatened people. If they didn't do what he told them, to his advantage, he would go nuts at them. What infuriated so many people about this approach is not so much the abuse and the orders and the rampages, which could be ignored, but the fact that it SO CONSISTENTLY WORKED. He scared player after player after player (most of them newbies who didn't know better) to hand the game to him on a plate. He made over 3000 points doing this, until he tried it on the moderators and lost (because wicked is, if anything, even crazier.)

Once you eliminate the suiciding player, you HOPEFULLY will find yourself with enough troops to survive and enough chaos behind you that you will be able to fight your way back to health. With supreme luck, the suicider you just eliminated gave you cards to further aid your recovery, maybe even a continent they were holding that you can claim. All this is, of course, totally based on circumstance and luck, and only really works well with unlimited forts, and doesn't work at all in escalating games (where it is, anyway, not an issue.) But one thing is probably sure: If you don't eliminate that suicider and do it fast, they'll take you both down.

Failing all this, listen to jiminski: what you thinkin, taking Europe??

i managed to hold europe for a turn in a 6 player flat rate game.......... only for one turn of course, but it was so worth it!

heres the link

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=447787

and heres a bit copied from the game log

2007-06-18 12:06:12 - alex_white101 receives 5 armies for holding Europe
2007-06-18 12:06:12 - alex_white101 receives 3 armies for 8 territories

i say 6 player but 2 were already eliminated.......

People don't like to be told what to do in this game, and even asking them to make a certain play can sometimes trigger an adverse reaction (or a reaction from another opponent who feels left out). So the best way to avoid this situation is to just play your own game without suggesting how your opponents can help you.

ZawBanjito wrote:chessplaya is actually, as far as I can tell from my experience, 100% correct in this. If a player decides to suicide against you, and if you KNOW FOR SURE that this is what is happening, declare loudly that you're going to whip their ass and go all out against them. "Get in my way if you want to DIE," you say to the rest of the players, "but this ass is goin DOWN and nothing will stop me."

(This does, of course, assume that you have the advantage or at least near-parity... otherwise they would be "eliminating" you and not "suiciding.")

This MAY have two positive effects: 1) The other players will probably leave you alone to go about your crazy work. This saves you from the threat of elimination in the short term, to remove the one pressing immediate threat (the suicider) that will almost certainly cost you victory. 2) More unpredictibly, your actions may cause chaos on the board. Evacuating your continent/territories, you open it up to others to claim. A mad dash ensues. Positions are shifted and lost. Troops that were used to defend against you are redirected to attack other players. Conflict breaks out as a new equilibrium is sought, and at the end, everyone will end up weaker.

The point is to go insane. People get out of the way of the crazy. They give them what they want in order to stop them from hurting people. Listen to AAFitz when he says that this game is as much psychology as it is anything else. You can use that to your advantage. dugcarr1 was the best example of this: From round 1, he threatened people. If they didn't do what he told them, to his advantage, he would go nuts at them. What infuriated so many people about this approach is not so much the abuse and the orders and the rampages, which could be ignored, but the fact that it SO CONSISTENTLY WORKED. He scared player after player after player (most of them newbies who didn't know better) to hand the game to him on a plate. He made over 3000 points doing this, until he tried it on the moderators and lost (because wicked is, if anything, even crazier.)

Once you eliminate the suiciding player, you HOPEFULLY will find yourself with enough troops to survive and enough chaos behind you that you will be able to fight your way back to health. With supreme luck, the suicider you just eliminated gave you cards to further aid your recovery, maybe even a continent they were holding that you can claim. All this is, of course, totally based on circumstance and luck, and only really works well with unlimited forts, and doesn't work at all in escalating games (where it is, anyway, not an issue.) But one thing is probably sure: If you don't eliminate that suicider and do it fast, they'll take you both down.

Failing all this, listen to jiminski: what you thinkin, taking Europe??

priceless...but dug got most of his points playing dubs with some damn good partners...

as a sidenote, ill use the dug strategy, albeit much more diplomatically in life or death situations...but I wont always actually suicide if someone attacks me...ill threaten it...park everything I have next to them....then they almost have no choice but to attack...when they do, its usually the same effect, they lose...but i dont have to suicide, which I despise unless there is an actual strategic reason behind it...thereby, my threats are still valid in the next game, and im not a low life suicider...but please note...the threats i make are against regulars who know me...not strangers unless i have no other alternative...for the most part, I let my fortifications do the talking, and use the chat for useless banter

Emperor_Metalman wrote:....
After someone else claimed Ukraine, and put armies there. I asked for them to be removed...

You are serious?

"excuse me I want that country will you please move your armies?"

I managed to hold europe in a 6 person terminator game for 3 or 4 turns. I created to much havoc and got crashed by several players so I took to suicide approach and took all my men and took over Australia where I finished out the game building up and taking people out. I will admit there way really now attempt for several rounds to even try to remove from the bonus. The real fight was going on in Australia. I am guessing eveyonr else was side tracked.

Just two cents.

Suicidal, and suicidal. Guess some times it's obvious. But, some time people gamble. And rightly so. We all know the dice. Now and then all-out attacks works, even against staggering odds.

This is for the people placing suicidals on their ignore list. One cannot always blame people for gambling.

alstergren wrote:Just two cents.

Suicidal, and suicidal. Guess some times it's obvious. But, some time people gamble. And rightly so. We all know the dice. Now and then all-out attacks works, even against staggering odds.

This is for the people placing suicidals on their ignore list. One cannot always blame people for gambling.

Of course not, but there is a big difference between taking a long-shot gamble that if successful can keep you in or even win the game and just popping off at a random player because you give up.

A good strategy is what was used in the Cold War. Say you are friendly but need armies for defense. Try outbuilding your opponent. Stack your armies next to theirs. If you stack enough, you will become too threatening. Then you can make threats.

Brinksmanship folks, brinksmanship. Again, works well if you have like 40 armies on a square. doesn't work well if you have 5 armies on all your europe borders. this can turn you into a target.

alstergren wrote:Just two cents.

Suicidal, and suicidal. Guess some times it's obvious. But, some time people gamble. And rightly so. We all know the dice. Now and then all-out attacks works, even against staggering odds.

This is for the people placing suicidals on their ignore list. One cannot always blame people for gambling.

If I do gamble everything on a risky move I will always say something along the lines of 'damn, that didn't go as planned' in the chat, just to let players know it wasn't just out of spite.

Edit: To clarify, this last part isn't related to the quote above.

So far I haven't had a suicider in my games, I've had plenty of gamblers though.
If you really can't survive a suicide you could always try asking the other players for a rematch afterwards, without the offending player.

when it comes down to it I play against the strongest player, and when I believe my situation is unteneable, I gather my force and attack, it usually comes to nothing, because I try to hold out to the last possible second, but I would be rather incensed if someone got mad at me for such tactics, they have worked before in tossing the game on its ear and allowing me a chance to rise from the ashes

alstergren wrote:Just two cents.

Suicidal, and suicidal. Guess some times it's obvious. But, some time people gamble. And rightly so. We all know the dice. Now and then all-out attacks works, even against staggering odds.

This is for the people placing suicidals on their ignore list. One cannot always blame people for gambling.

with ppl taking a shot and missing u r talkin about hangings here not suicidals

suicide attacks means the following : the player who attacked ur strongest armies can not take u out by all means

example : u r red...u have 10 armies on new guinea...blue is blocking indonesia with 30 armies...

red has 30 armies on ontario..green cashes a set deploys 45 armies on alberta..attacks ontario and conquers it from red.... green is nowehere near aussi and he still attacked ur 30 armies..thats fucking suicide


in this case red is not protected in aussi he has 1 more country left with 30 armies on ontario and 3 cards lets say....green cashes and he still holds 2 cards if he kills red he cashes again and wins the game....green deploys 45 armies on alberta attacks ontario but he fails.....no1 can blame this guy he is playing risk

but the 1st guy was playing monopoly so ignore list is the best choice

whats really annoying are those players that are not interested
in winning the game but just want to continually attack one other
opponent - round after round - denying their victim a bonus at all costs!

of course, they waste their armies and eventually get eliminated but
in a final twist they try to make sure their victim doesnt get the cards.

if there is a reason for this behaviour (i cant call it strategy) it seems to be petty revenge -
such as their victim had the audacity to deny them a bonus in an earlier round.

whatever, they can spoil a nicely balanced game for all the players and it
really flies in the face of the spirit of the game.

should this behaviour be called suiciding, or perhaps revenging?

That's bad strategy, suiciding is what chessplaya said, one player attacking a stronger player all out having no chance of eliminating him. They usually end up with 3 armies or less on one country and a long trail of 1s behind them.

As for how to deal with them... I'm afraid you can't. They get bored of the game, see no chance of winning, whatever, and hit one other player randomly. Sometimes they go for the strongest just because. I guess they're envious that someone got into a so much better position than they did.



I can only remember seeing ONE case of "fair suiciding" so far, one player was leaving CC for good and didn't want to deadbeat because that would have left a continentful of neutral armies on the board. He gave us a 3 rounds warning and hit every other player on the board pretty much equally hard.



Oh, and what Emperor_Metalman said, about asking an other player to withdraw his armies from a country, it sometimes works. I've done it myself. I wasn't thinking it would work, but it did.

Look, suicides suck, and yes, they're hard to predict and sometimes hard to recover from, but that's no reason to put someone on your ignore list or leave then negative feedback. As others in this thread have already stated, what looks like a suicide to one person is an unfortunate gamble to another. Do you really want to damage someone's reputation for what turns purely on subjective analysis coupled with hindsight? Better to leave such strong remedies for things most everyone can agree on, like deadbeating, turning on your teammates, etc.

Hey, I'm new here. I won't pretend to have a well thought out strategy for winning. You live and learn, you know?

Anywho. It may appear that sometimes when I get a wee bit desparate, I may be committing suicide. I really am not, I am just shaking up the board to see if something different (other than my impending doom) will shake out. That tactic has actually worked and kept me in a couple games longer than I had hoped Long story short, this is war. How can anyone critique how people chose to fight their wars? If you lose in the end, suck it up and fight another war another day. No tears please.






My enemy's enemy is not necessarily my friend