Conquer Club

What are your thoughts on the new escalating spoils? Are they helping to avoid stalemates?

I haven't had any experience with standard (no fog, no trench) stalemates with the old escalating spoils so I haven't seen any movement on this. However, the new escalating spoils seem to have a negative impact on large scale escalating trench games. This is largely due to the spoils getting out of control way too early. And since the spoils increase 10%, it is much more difficult to move around the map since almost any stack will be taken out by the next set played... In my opinion, this has led to many more stalemates than it's prevented. I hope we can go back to the standard +5 variety.

Pardon my ignorance...but what are the new escalating spoils?

loutil wrote:Pardon my ignorance...but what are the new escalating spoils?

I believe they increase by 10% for every cash above 100 troops, or something like that

huh? what is he talking about? is he having a laugh? the black jesus is confused..-el Jesus negro

owenshooter wrote:huh? what is he talking about? is he having a laugh? the black jesus is confused..-el Jesus negro

this: viewtopic.php?f=535&t=192292

from this block of updates: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=200899

I am aware of this issue. However, before there's any talk of changing it, keep in mind that there were plenty of escalating stalemates in Trench before the change. So I would need to be convinced that under the new system, there are more stalemates in escalating trench.

I believe the system is working quite well in non-trench games, which was the main intent.

My issue with it is it's taking it further and further from Risk. While I know CC is more than just a Risk style game, most of us came here looking for that game. Changing the way esc works makes it less like the game people came here to play, and if it changes too much eventually people will go elsewhere to find a system that plays like Risk.

IcePack wrote:My issue with it is it's taking it further and further from Risk. While I know CC is more than just a Risk style game, most of us came here looking for that game. Changing the way esc works makes it less like the game people came here to play, and if it changes too much eventually people will go elsewhere to find a system that plays like Risk.

I do not agree. How many people have played "real" Risk and ever got to the point where cashes reach 100 troops? I suppose it might happen in competitive play but I've never gotten close in over-the-board play, even though it's obviously possible.

IcePack wrote:My issue with it is it's taking it further and further from Risk. While I know CC is more than just a Risk style game, most of us came here looking for that game. Changing the way esc works makes it less like the game people came here to play, and if it changes too much eventually people will go elsewhere to find a system that plays like Risk.

i had no idea this was even in discussion and i'm in the forum every day... way to make the important stuff visible (*cough*)... i agree with the statement above... the further you get from the original concept, the further you are going to see the numbers of active members decrease... i think it is interesting that so few have put together the increase in cheat codes and emphasis on speed games as part of the decline of the site... when i joined, it was cool to play a game against someone on a level playing field... then i heard about the add/ons and cheat codes that people used and figured out that i needed to stick to certain game settings to have a chance at winning. that took away speed games. the more and more the original concept/rules get bastardized and further from a RISK style game, the more my interest wains... really wish i had seen this in the forums, i would have spoken out against it... the black jesus is sad...-el Jesus negro

Metsfanmax wrote:

IcePack wrote:My issue with it is it's taking it further and further from Risk. While I know CC is more than just a Risk style game, most of us came here looking for that game. Changing the way esc works makes it less like the game people came here to play, and if it changes too much eventually people will go elsewhere to find a system that plays like Risk.

I do not agree. How many people have played "real" Risk and ever got to the point where cashes reach 100 troops? I suppose it might happen in competitive play but I've never gotten close in over-the-board play, even though it's obviously possible.

Clearly we disagree then. Even if I said 100's! To the original question, which was rhetorical, it wouldn't sway your personal opinion.

I have no problem giving additional spoils options, but I would like the option of being able to keep the "classic" game classic and not get further away from it. Without specific numbers it's impossible to answer your questions, maybe that's the point. Any sort of sampling will obviously be of small scale, so outside of that were just arguing opinions.

IcePack wrote:

Metsfanmax wrote:

IcePack wrote:My issue with it is it's taking it further and further from Risk. While I know CC is more than just a Risk style game, most of us came here looking for that game. Changing the way esc works makes it less like the game people came here to play, and if it changes too much eventually people will go elsewhere to find a system that plays like Risk.

I do not agree. How many people have played "real" Risk and ever got to the point where cashes reach 100 troops? I suppose it might happen in competitive play but I've never gotten close in over-the-board play, even though it's obviously possible.

Clearly we disagree then. Even if I said 100's! To the original question, which was rhetorical, it wouldn't sway your personal opinion.

I have no problem giving additional spoils options, but I would like the option of being able to keep the "classic" game classic and not get further away from it. Without specific numbers it's impossible to answer your questions, maybe that's the point. Any sort of sampling will obviously be of small scale, so outside of that were just arguing opinions.

I was asking seriously. Have you played in a real-life over the board game where this change would have affected it? Has anyone who is concerned about "changing" the game from Risk actually experienced that in over-the-board play? If not, then yes, your argument is that there are some unknown players out there who might be negatively affected by this. Since there's no evidence that they would be negatively affected by this -- they might agree that the original board game was flawed -- then who are we actually protecting by changing the game back?

wait, wait, wait... after you reach 100? pshaw... kuddos on the change... the black jesus has flip flopped...-el Jesus negro

owenshooter wrote:wait, wait, wait... after you reach 100? pshaw... kuddos on the change... the black jesus has flip flopped...-el Jesus negro

Thanks for pointing out that you didn't even know about it. This was really only publicized in the announcement thread so if you don't follow those carefully it's possible to have missed it entirely. If you have any ideas for how to make these things more obvious without spamming up the UI, please let me know.

IcePack wrote:My issue with it is it's taking it further and further from Risk. While I know CC is more than just a Risk style game, most of us came here looking for that game. Changing the way esc works makes it less like the game people came here to play, and if it changes too much eventually people will go elsewhere to find a system that plays like Risk.

Well, this is an extremely important point, and one that I addressed several times in the original debate.

The fact is, the old way of doing escalating worked fine, on a map with 42 terts, where nobody ever deployed more than 10 or 12 troops without cards. On that map, with that bonus structure, you would be able to blow open an enemy by cashing a set.

On maps like Supermax or Fractured China or Hive or AOR2 or KC2, where people are deploying 25 or 50 or 100 troops per turn without cards, the old escalating spoils system simply doesn't do anything. It basically becomes irrelevant in the face of the modern CC maps and their humungous bonus structures.

So, are we getting farther and farther from the original game of Risk? Yes we are. But this change doesn't originate with the spoils system. This change originates with the trend in maps towards ever bigger maps with ever more generous bonus structures. Give credit where credit is due: the change is escalating spoils was brought about as a response to the prevailing trend. It's an attempt to rebalance a situation which had become grossly imbalanced.

Could a simple solution be to offer both "classic" escalating & "steroid" spoils?

vexx wrote:Could a simple solution be to offer both "classic" escalating & "steroid" spoils?

This. Adapt if you must but why remove what people have been using?

IcePack wrote:

vexx wrote:Could a simple solution be to offer both "classic" escalating & "steroid" spoils?

This. Adapt if you must but why remove what people have been using?

+1. It should be an option but not forced on everyone

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=13928388

it's only one example of escalating trench, and I'm not yet sure it counts as a "stalemate" (although it could go that way). spoils are up to over 11,000 per.

don't know if this game would have played out any differently with "normal escalating" vs. the new "steroid escalating"…

edit: sorry, it's fog. not a good example at the moment.

i thought this was a good post that shouldn't be lost on the first page... really great points... as usual, BLAME THE FOUNDRY!!!! the black jesus has spoken...-el Jesus negro

Dukasaur wrote:

IcePack wrote:My issue with it is it's taking it further and further from Risk. While I know CC is more than just a Risk style game, most of us came here looking for that game. Changing the way esc works makes it less like the game people came here to play, and if it changes too much eventually people will go elsewhere to find a system that plays like Risk.

Well, this is an extremely important point, and one that I addressed several times in the original debate.

The fact is, the old way of doing escalating worked fine, on a map with 42 terts, where nobody ever deployed more than 10 or 12 troops without cards. On that map, with that bonus structure, you would be able to blow open an enemy by cashing a set.

On maps like Supermax or Fractured China or Hive or AOR2 or KC2, where people are deploying 25 or 50 or 100 troops per turn without cards, the old escalating spoils system simply doesn't do anything. It basically becomes irrelevant in the face of the modern CC maps and their humungous bonus structures.

So, are we getting farther and farther from the original game of Risk? Yes we are. But this change doesn't originate with the spoils system. This change originates with the trend in maps towards ever bigger maps with ever more generous bonus structures. Give credit where credit is due: the change is escalating spoils was brought about as a response to the prevailing trend. It's an attempt to rebalance a situation which had become grossly imbalanced.