Conquer Club

If you have a regular team for tournies, or play in a clan - do you have your team/clan mates pass?

I stumbled across this in c&a (along with a dodgy cardigan) - please post your thoughts - is it acceptable or normal to hold clanmates passes 24/7?

I'm confused - i'm not sure if this is a guideline, a rule, or nightstrike's personal opinion.

To comply, should I change my pass so that no-one else knows it but myself?
I'm concerned because if a real life crisis came up (e.g every chance hospitalisation) I would be forced to deadbeat every game i'm in. I feel this woud let my teammates / clanmates down.

Can someone please offer me advice? I'm confused. I always thought it responsible to have "a sitter" - someone that would have my pass 24/7, is this now wrong?


Postby king achilles on Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:31 am

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"For your own good, please do take note of this:"
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Night Strike wrote:This right here is the completely FALSE mentality that gives rise to all of these stupid clan-sitting cases and blatant rule violations. You do NOT have the right to have someone else's password 24/7 in case they MIGHT miss a turn. Account sitting is supposed to only be used when people know ahead of time that they will be away from the computer and can change their password to a temporary one for the duration of the account sitting. Jumping into everybody's turns simply because they might miss is utterly ridiculous. A missed turn is literally not the end of the world. If you lose a game or clan war because of it, then so be it. Breaking the rules to have someone jump on your account anytime they want is not worth it. If Chuck was missing too many turns and becoming a liability in the clan war, then why did you keep putting him in those games? You deal with the problem when the next set of games become available, not when you have their password and can log in any time you feel like it. It's that mentality that every single game must be won at all costs (including breaking the rules) that has caused so many people to make clan wars completely intolerable to everybody else who doesn't adhere to that fundamentally flawed philosophy.

It has always been the position of the admins that you should not share your normal passwords. If you look through any of the high profile account sitting abuse cases you will find a similar comment by KA in all of them.

edit: And to answer your first question, I have specifically asked all members of G1 to not share permanent passwords. We change our passwords when headed out for vacation and give it to clan mates, but upon returning change it back to something private. Sure it might cause some missed turns, but who cares?

And here are some of KA's posts on the subject from different threads:

king achilles wrote:Account sitting is for a definite period of time and NOT for an indefinite period.

king achilles wrote:You can't assign an account sitter to account sit for you for as long as his blood is running into his veins. Then you can now sleep soundly whenever or do other stuff because you know he is going to save you from missing a turn.

king achilles wrote:Until a sitter feature is encoded, it would be impossible to control this practice and it mostly falls on you not to abuse your privileges or share your accounts with one another.

king achilles wrote:I know how clans can be competitive, but I would hope that players are still responsible enough to play their own games and not pass the buck as easily as that because their clanmates will cover for them.

Otherwise, we should have a dummy account named under the clan since several clan members are playing under that account.

king achilles wrote:Let me remind that Account sitting is only for situations where the player is in danger of missing his turn. It is not for the purpose of safeguarding someone's games, 24 hours/day for as long as you want

king achilles wrote:It is not a 24/7 responsibility of anyone to look after the games of their friends or clan mates as this can be seen as account sharing where more than one person is already freely logging in to one account whenever these people want to.

king achilles wrote:Do not be responsible for other people's games. Your friends should be responsible enough to play their own games and not share their account with you because they know you are there to prevent them from missing a turn and they would do other stuff instead.

One person, my regular doubles mate, has my password and I have his. We only use it if we happen to see that one of us is missing turns unexpectedly, i.e. "emergency".

We never use it to "just log in" or take turns whenever we want. I don't think I have ever used it to take turns or log into his account because he never misses his turns. I think he has done it for me once.

Other then that, when I know I'm going to be away, I change my password and give it to 2 or 3 clan members, so they can "sit for me" and take my turns.

If this "arrangement" is against the rules, I would certainly like to know.

Lx

Lindax wrote:One person, my regular doubles mate, has my password and I have his. We only use it if we happen to see that one of us is missing turns unexpectedly, i.e. "emergency".

We never use it to "just log in" or take turns whenever we want. I don't think I have ever used it to take turns or log into his account because he never misses his turns. I think he has done it for me once.

Other then that, when I know I'm going to be away, I change my password and give it to 2 or 3 clan members, so they can "sit for me" and take my turns.

If this "arrangement" is against the rules, I would certainly like to know.

Lx

This is pretty much exactly my perspective as well. If a normally reliable clanmate is 9 minutes from missing, is it wrong to jump in and take it? We do, but we also post in game chat that someone caught the turn. We don't ever log on to accounts for the purposes that happened with the CoF case.

For another perspective from a clanmate:

Clanmate wrote:wow so any of us that have demanding jobs where we may have to work late at random and can't schedule our lives cleanly around CC are screwed sweet.... utterly ludicrous. but frankly this is bs trying to adapt to this is just starting to feel too much like work.... i'm going to sleep so i can be ready for my real job.

*edit* that being said i'm just mildly pissed that i may get chased away from an enjoyable habit because of some over reaching bullshit....

This is my point jj and Lx - someone else does have your pass 24/7. Fact.

I'm trying to seperate this from any reflection on the c&a case.

Bones makes his points what KA thinks.

Does this really happen? - "no-one else knows your pass", appears to me what Bones and KA are saying, is this realistic? Does it happen in real life, is it responsible? this is my question

Like bones said this

"It has always been the position of the admins that you should not share your normal passwords. If you look through any of the high profile account sitting abuse cases you will find a similar comment by KA in all of them.

edit: And to answer your first question, I have specifically asked all members of G1 to not share permanent passwords"



So it's a deadbeat situation if someone goes ill?

A lot of people may consider this bad managment. Where's Nick - he OK with this?

I absolutely understand the point... but I think it would make clans irrelevant, as a player who plays in a lot of clan games has a RL situation, and all of a sudden you can have up to a third of the games become automatic losses because of the DB. This has happened to us probably at least three times in the past 4 wars we have played. We won 2 of those 3, but otherwise would have lost them all had the player been forced to DB.

I think if CC allowed this to happen, there wouldn't be anymore controversy because there wouldn't be any more clans, and wouldn't be a site to manage because most of the clan world would quit!

Just my $0.02.

nippersean wrote:A lot of people may consider this bad managment. Where's Nick - he OK with this?

It's not bad management to play by the rules.

Clan Wars are based on the overall strength of the clan. And part of that strength is having reliable teammates that you can count on to take their own turns or let you know when something has come up and they need coverage.

Bones2484 wrote:

nippersean wrote:A lot of people may consider this bad managment. Where's Nick - he OK with this?

It's not bad management to play by the rules.

Clan Wars are based on the overall strength of the clan. And part of that strength is having reliable teammates that you can count on to take their own turns or let you know when something has come up and they need coverage.

So no-one has anyone elses pass in G1? Someone gets indisposed, they will deadbeat??

Please confirm Bones - no-one in G1 has anyone elses pass? Fact or fiction??

At least one person has my password, and I know the password of one other guy. I don't see this as against the rules, or even borderline.

If I was going to miss a turn and someone steps in to take it with time running very low on it and announces in chat that they are doing so then I don't see the problem.

There is no way you will get everyone to follow this, and I do not think I need to. I trust the person with my password wont take my turns in an unnecessary fashion.

Well look to the OP and the c&A thread KA quoted nightstrike:

"You do NOT have the right to have someone else's password 24/7 in case they MIGHT miss a turn."

And Bones in this same thread


"It has always been the position of the admins that you should not share your normal passwords. If you look through any of the high profile account sitting abuse cases you will find a similar comment by KA in all of them.

edit: And to answer your first question, I have specifically asked all members of G1 to not share permanent passwords"



Well PMC - Bones is arguing that what you are doing "is against the position of the admins"

Anyone else guilty of this??

Bones2484 wrote:

nippersean wrote:A lot of people may consider this bad managment. Where's Nick - he OK with this?

It's not bad management to play by the rules.

Clan Wars are based on the overall strength of the clan. And part of that strength is having reliable teammates that you can count on to take their own turns or let you know when something has come up and they need coverage.

IF they can let you know.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with NS and everything he said on this subject. However, I don't think there is anything wrong with some contingency in case of a real emergency.

Btw: When I was a TD, Night Strike didn't have any problem having my password 24/7 in case of an emergency.

Lx

In my estimation, the real problem that KA has (the admin stance) is not the sharing itself, but the decision on the account sitter's behalf on when someone is going to miss a turn. You can see in the CoF case that is something that CoF did often - decide there was a good chance someone was going to miss, so he took their turn - when in some cases (like mine) the time I was taking my turn didn't line up with when CoF wanted me to take the turn.

I don't think what Lx or pmc do is a problem. The problem is when a player assumes that they are to step in at any time and take turns as needed.

NS's post was his opinion (he has plenty, which he is very entitled to ). He does make some valid points there, and I wouldn't be surprised to see rules about account sitting increase.

Everyone knows this is mainly just words in the wind. Every clan (except for G1, apparently) has people who have the (more or less) permanent passwords of select others. Not so they can take all of their turns at will, but so they can handle an unexpected emergency. Well, some clans have more than that, maybe

Sorry for jumping into a thread that is essentially about a specific case but I have been wondering about this "sitter" stuff for a few days.

Playing in a tourney, so I can understand that maybe an account sitter knowing the person was going to be away for several days or longer might feel that rather than following the instructions of only playing a move to avoid it being missed that playing as soon as possible would help to move the tourney along.

All there is in the chat other my my saying "hi" are "A for Z", "B for Z", "C for Z", "B for Z", "A for Z", as far as I can tell my opponent hasn't actually played a move himself, all sitters are clan members of a higher rank to my opponent. Quickest next move start after one of mine is 2 seconds! Only another 23 hours and 58 seconds before the move would have been missed, better safe than sorry

I'm not making an official complaint (I do know where to do so) simply because it's a map I don't know and am bound lose anyway.

The practice though stinks, a player should not enter a tourney if they know that they're going to miss the start and rely on (higher ranked) clan mates to play the games in their absence. Why more than one "sitter"? But given that there is more than one then there is no reason for a move to be played for 18-20 hours rather than instantly.

Perhaps the rules need refining? A minimum of at least 12 hours before a sitter can play a move? Only one sitter, not a whole clan? Ranking of no more than one step higher than the missing player?

Rank doesn't mean shit. Someone can be really good at 1v1 freestyle against unskilled players and another can have high points from team games but still suck at 1v1. I typed a ton of ideas on account sitting in the mod forum back when we actually thought lack gave a f*ck, and I can't get to them anymore, but I don't feel like rehashing them in public. Suffice it to say there are a lot of good ideas already written out on how to do it.

To be honest we have a clan list of who has who's passwords but purely for when that person is away on holiday or cannot be on for 24 hours.

I usually have 100 games on the go so wouldnt have the time nor the inclanation to check other peoples games on a regular basis.

You guys sure seem to have a lot of "emergencies"

In my 6 years here, I have planned for all my vacations by doing the temp PW thing with my group....the few times emergencies have happened, we have communicated by phone to get the pw thing done.....sure some missed turns but whatever....shit happens.

I hate it when you play someone and they KNOW they're gonna be unavailable and 27 other people take their turns....don't play....don't join games.....if you cant honor your commitments, dont make em.....just like real life.....period.

It would be ridiculous to define what rank can sit for what rank....friends take care of friends.....some abuse the system but thats gonna happen in ANY system

nippersean wrote:Please confirm Bones - no-one in G1 has anyone elses pass? Fact or fiction??

I'm in G1. We do not share permanent passwords. If someone knows ahead of time that they're going to be away, they'll change to a temporary password, and make arrangements to have their account sat for a definitive period of time. When they return, they change their password back to whatever it was.

It is not a hard and fast rule/requirement by any means. We've just talked about it and everyone who has responded has agreed that they don't want to share passwords (which so far has been nearly all of our active-in-challenges members). So it's more of a group consensus of those who have responded in the thread. I'm not going to force people to follow a policy if they don't want to, though I hope they'd be careful with their account and possible abuse if someone does have their password.

I can say that I do not know a single person's password who is not currently out on vacation and no one knows mine. I cannot speak for others.

KoolBak wrote:You guys sure seem to have a lot of "emergencies"

It's not like every day somebody's house is getting burnt down. But think about it and how often do you find something happening to you that puts you an hour behind schedule? How often do you get a flat tire, or miss your train, or there's a car accident on the Kennedy and traffic just isn't moving, or your boss asks you to stay late, or your internet died, or your alarm didn't wake you, or somebody stole the key bowl from the orgy, or your maid got saucy with you and you were forced to give her a stern, yet not uncaring spanking? Probably more often than you'd first expect, which is why I've hired a second maid to take my turns for me.

Master Fenrir wrote:

KoolBak wrote:You guys sure seem to have a lot of "emergencies"

It's not like every day somebody's house is getting burnt down. But think about it and how often do you find something happening to you that puts you an hour behind schedule? How often do you get a flat tire, or miss your train, or there's a car accident on the Kennedy and traffic just isn't moving, or your boss asks you to stay late, or your internet died, or your alarm didn't wake you, or somebody stole the key bowl from the orgy, or your maid got saucy with you and you were forced to give her a stern, yet not uncaring spanking? Probably more often than you'd first expect, which is why I've hired a second maid to take my turns for me.

What goes on in YOUR life Fen?

Master Fenrir wrote:

KoolBak wrote: Probably more often than you'd first expect, which is why I've hired a second maid to take my turns for me.

I would expect nothing less from you, MF!

QoH wrote:

Master Fenrir wrote:

KoolBak wrote:You guys sure seem to have a lot of "emergencies"

It's not like every day somebody's house is getting burnt down. But think about it and how often do you find something happening to you that puts you an hour behind schedule? How often do you get a flat tire, or miss your train, or there's a car accident on the Kennedy and traffic just isn't moving, or your boss asks you to stay late, or your internet died, or your alarm didn't wake you, or somebody stole the key bowl from the orgy, or your maid got saucy with you and you were forced to give her a stern, yet not uncaring spanking? Probably more often than you'd first expect, which is why I've hired a second maid to take my turns for me.

What goes on in YOUR life Fen?

when he start talking about maids and turning on, for first time i though he has shred of normality in him, and then i saw for what he is using maids... reading what he is saying is like reading diary of eunuch... so much potential, yet nothing good has ever happened.

anyhow, back to topic

two of my clanmates have my password. and i dont plan to change it everytime im not around so they dont have it when im around... i also have passwords of, not sure, 5-6 of my clanmates. everyone in our clan have given his/her password to someone inside of clan, for case of emergency. it is a way we we operate. if its against rules, then fine, ban me, but i do not want to play this game if i dont have someone who can jump in when im not around. they will never do it if i dont tell them to, and when im not sure am i going to make it on time, i text them or call them... btw is that against the rules too? should i change my phone number because some of my clanmates are also my RL friends who had my cell number even before we come here?
i havent missed a turn for a long time, and im usually online, but my work requires occasional traveling, sometimes unannounced and sometimes it takes more then one day to complete the job. so, in that case, i should miss my turns because im stuck in some hotel 500km outside of my hometown, without internet access?(and no, i dont ever play from my phone and i dont plan to, even though i check games from time to time...) because those are the rules? thats stupid.
two days ago, player from my clan text me, saying he will not be able to take a turn, and ask me to cover for him. i did that(and wrote in chat im covering for him... something i, and all of my clanmates always do). yesterday, i got PM from another clan member saying that same guy might miss a move as he have less then 1hr to take a move. i didnt want to jump in, thinking he would text me again if he is about to miss a turn, so i waited(if time went to 15mins or less, id jump in), and he come some 10 minutes later and completed his move. so, if someone explain me how on earth this can be abusive, even though KA says its against the rules, ill suck my own... finger. but the middle one.
i dont take other turns when "i feel like", although i do sign in on my clanmates accounts to see fog games in clan wars. i dont share any tactics nor do i take moves, just want to see situation on table.

Wow. How easy is this...it's against the rules to take a turn for someone else simply because they are in danger of missing their turn.

It's not actively enforced, indeed it's normally only enforced when higher profile players are focused on in C & A

It's not against the rules to taketheturns of someone who will be away and makes arrangements prior to leaving for someone to play their turns.

Yes, it is illegal when you take a teammates turn because they have 2 minutes left. Yes it would suck more to have the turn miss, but that doesn't make it legal.

And yes, 90 percent of people playing on CC break this rule. I suspect most occasions are not more than "occasional" cover, but some are definitely abused.

friendly1 wrote:Yes, it is illegal when you take a teammates turn because they have 2 minutes left. Yes it would suck more to have the turn miss, but that doesn't make it legal.

And yes, 90 percent of people playing on CC break this rule. I suspect most occasions are not more than "occasional" cover, but some are definitely abused.

I'm not sure of that...

And thats due to the FAQ About the rules Section, where #19 says:

Furthermore, you should only take another player's turn if they are in danger of missing a turn, not for the purpose of gaining a tactical advantage.

So it'd be hard to imagine that 2 minutes wouldn't fall under that