Conquer Club

Edit to First Post: It has now been said in KA post viewtopic.php?f=6&t=145824&start=60#p3184430 that it was game throwing instead of point dumping, as such i have edited the poll

Original First Post: So recently I got a warning for "point dumping" because

king achilles wrote:These recent public post that I have read in the forums has shown that you intentionally lowered your rank to achieve a certain score so that you can be a "normal player" again coming from being a Conqueror.

Now I will admit that I have done this but i have also played to win every game and have not been provided any evidence by the part of the mods to show me otherwise. Furthermore later in the pm KA says

king achilles wrote:game throwing is still game throwing and to do it a number of times just to lower your score is still gross abuse of the game.

To me this means they should provide me with at least 4-5 instances of me "throwing" games in order to have a case against me...which has not been done. All they have stated in the pm is that I am intentionally lowering my score...but how is this illegal if i am playing to win every game?

I would like a serious discussion on the matter

Although I did not know of this warning Ljex, I was not all that surprised. You did make your intention pretty clear.
I am still a bit unclear as to the nature of the warning. Is it an official 1st step on the escalating ladder or just a nudge that they keep an close eye on you?

Anyways, the rankingsystem has flaws. Hell the site has flaws. Anybody abusing those flaws is likely to get a warning or worse. You announced your intention to legally pointdump knowing well that it was a blow against the integrity of the ranking system, and that is just that, you cannot be legally annoying.

Don't get me wrong, i know nothing about your case from the mods point of view, but this is what i was wondering/muzing..
Still, I am unsure if the C&A wll discus this with you, considering they never do. I don't think they should. Seeing how close you can get to not breaking a rule is just plain... annoying..

SirSebstar wrote:Although I did not know of this warning Ljex, I was not all that surprised. You did make your intention pretty clear.
I am still a bit unclear as to the nature of the warning. Is it an official 1st step on the escalating ladder or just a nudge that they keep an close eye on you?

Anyways, the rankingsystem has flaws. Hell the site has flaws. Anybody abusing those flaws is likely to get a warning or worse. You announced your intention to legally pointdump knowing well that it was a blow against the integrity of the ranking system, and that is just that, you cannot be legally annoying.

Don't get me wrong, i know nothing about your case from the mods point of view, but this is what i was wondering/muzing..
Still, I am unsure if the C&A wll discus this with you, considering they never do. I don't think they should. Seeing how close you can get to not breaking a rule is just plain... annoying..

Yes I made my intentions very clear, to play lots of 1 vs 1 games and see where that got me...i played every single game with the intentions of winning, i just dont see how that can be illegal.

Lolz at the anybody abusing the integrity of the site will get a ban because last I checked every single conqueror ever has done that to get there.

I'm not trying to see how close I can get to not breaking the rules, where have I ever said that and this was an official warning, I received the unofficial one about a week ago when KA sent me a pm asking to make sure I was playing to win. As i told him now and as I said then I am playing every game to win. If playing games that you know in the long run will result in points lost was against the rules maybe he should have told me then so I could not have continued onto my official warning...

Ok, since I am a mod I cannot be very provocative, so I will try to keep it friendly.

show: rumble rumble

Just to be clear, you got an unofficial warning and THEN a full official warning?? I do not know anything regarding the specifics of your case, but in general I am quite willing to discus it.

As to the state of previous Conquerors, some have been busted/ warned or ignored and now those practices are now mostly outlawed..

ljex wrote:...
Yes I made my intentions very clear, to play lots of 1 vs 1 games and see where that got me...i played every single game with the intentions of winning, i just dont see how that can be illegal.

Lolz at the anybody abusing the integrity of the site will get a ban because last I checked every single conqueror ever has done that to get there.

I'm not trying to see how close I can get to not breaking the rules, where have I ever said that and this was an official warning, I received the unofficial one about a week ago when KA sent me a pm asking to make sure I was playing to win. As i told him now and as I said then I am playing every game to win. If playing games that you know in the long run will result in points lost was against the rules maybe he should have told me then so I could not have continued onto my official warning...

does this stance mean i am not allowed to play maps i like because i will, in the long run, lose points on them.

greenoaks wrote:does this stance mean i am not allowed to play maps i like because i will, in the long run, lose points on them.

no, but it might mean you cannot go from conqueror to cook in a short time without eyebrows raising. if you announce an intention to break the system, what do YOU think the C&A is supposed to do?

SirSebstar wrote:

greenoaks wrote:does this stance mean i am not allowed to play maps i like because i will, in the long run, lose points on them.

no, but it might mean you cannot go from conqueror to cook in a short time without eyebrows raising. if you announce an intention to break the system, what do YOU think the C&A is supposed to do?

But ljex hasn't gone to cook. He has dropped to a mid rank. Please don't say this smacks of dumping as there are other recorded events of this very nature.

So once a player reaches a certain level, or in this case the highest level, you are not allowed to play the games of your choosing?

It has been long established that it is near impossible to achieve the monster scores without game selection. I don't see a rule where you are forced to keep gaining points the same way.

I can only see disciplinary actions if it can be proven someone is intentionally throwing games and losing points.
This would mean that, for instance, I can receive the same punishment because I am not at my highest possible level. I 'could' increase my score by not playing certain type of games.

I can only conclude there was more then ljax is telling us, or the C&A mods for that matter.

@streaker no it does not mean that you get a penalty for not being at the highest possible level. but dropping a few K points intentionally is bad. If Ljax has honestly tried to win every game, then i dont know. But if e.g. you start 50 speed games, you may have the intention of winning, but not really since you might just not be able to do that many games. it amounts to the same thing at that point. there has to be some indication of foul play, and intentions be damned then

Ah...but the op is protected by the 'if jef jef told you to jump off a cliff would you?' clause. Therefore, it wasn't point dumping, just rank idiocy.

Mr Changsha wrote:Ah...but the op is protected by the 'if jef jef told you to jump off a cliff would you?' clause. Therefore, it wasn't point dumping, just rank idiocy.

I am missing the point here(of your piece). could you elaborate?

Absolutely not. I join games all the time I assume ill lose, but it isnt necessarily point dumping. In my case, most of them are an attempt to learn, or challenge myself.

Its point dumping when you plan on not making your turns, or purposefully make moves to lose the game....other than that, suggesting one cannot choose their games, is wrong.

HOWEVER, there are many who are point dumping right now. They are purposefully not winning, and they enjoy going to the bottom of the scoreboard...presumably since its the only way they know how to move on the scoreboard at all. They then typically join games with other players and essentially bomb them for their points. This could be solved easily by either enforcement, or just capping the low end of points at 500. Below 500 is such a useless number, there is no reason for those scores.

Further, if a person is repeatedly playing against one player, or a group of players, repeatedly in quick succession, that they will be handing them points if they are unable to win, and its clear that is the intention, so that very well could, and probably is point dumping as well.

However, if I decide to join 30 assassin doodle games right now, which statistically will mean I will lose most of them, but try to win in each one...its difficult to say I am point dumping per se. The losing of the points is really secondary to me playing the game.

Suggesting someone has to play games they might win, is kind of like suggesting people should choose jobs they will make lots of money at. It contradicts "the pursuit of happiness" doctrine, on a fundamental level. At the same time, that does not necessarily excuse using a front company to lose money for the purposes of laundering or tax right offs either.

Fritz, I..concur.
Playing to win cannot be pointdumping.

But as an example, say i would have 4 k points, started 50 speedgames doodle assassin and then would "incidently" attack the wrong target or neutrals in at least a couple of games? How would you qualify this?

SirSebsta[quote][/quote]r wrote:

Mr Changsha wrote:Ah...but the op is protected by the 'if jef jef told you to jump off a cliff would you?' clause. Therefore, it wasn't point dumping, just rank idiocy.

I am missing the point here(of your piece). could you elaborate?

Read 'Blitz the FINAL thread' from about page 7 or so...the but the key comment is surely here:

my team should have won WWII Europe...even you admitted that in the chat and i do suck a lot at Napolean which is 2 of those games i lost i believe anyway jefjef im not really trying to have an e-penis fight but if thats what it takes for you to believe i would be higher than major with only sequential games then im willing to do that.

So...the chap destroyed his rank to prove something to jef jef. I consider this to be absolutely idiotic and also quite liked the rather subtle, 'rank idiocy' to boot.

ah thanks.
Yes, jefjef has an inspiring effect on people. I am glad though.

SirSebstar wrote:Fritz, I..concur.
Playing to win cannot be pointdumping.

But as an example, say i would have 4 k points, started 50 speedgames doodle assassin and then would "incidently" attack the wrong target or neutrals in at least a couple of games? How would you qualify this?

You can play properly and still tank your rank on that form.

Mr Changsha wrote:You can play properly and still tank your rank on that form.

That was not the question...

SirSebstar wrote:

Mr Changsha wrote:You can play properly and still tank your rank on that form.

That was not the question...

True...but your question was irrelevent with regards to doodle ass.

Mr Changsha wrote:

SirSebstar wrote:

Mr Changsha wrote:You can play properly and still tank your rank on that form.

That was not the question...

True...but your question was irrelevent with regards to doodle ass.

Its an example, your reply is irrelevant to my question. If you take offense to the question asked, please be so kind as to imrpove upon it.
point remains, if you claim to try to win all games, but you make wrong moves like attacking the wrong target and or neutrals, how does that look.. sigh

SirSebstar wrote:

Mr Changsha wrote:

SirSebstar wrote:

Mr Changsha wrote:You can play properly and still tank your rank on that form.

That was not the question...

True...but your question was irrelevent with regards to doodle ass.

Its an example, your reply is irrelevant to my question. If you take offense to the question asked, please be so kind as to imrpove upon it.
point remains, if you claim to try to win all games, but you make wrong moves like attacking the wrong target and or neutrals, how does that look.. sigh

Except ljex wasn't doing that.. he was playing to win, so idk why his case would be considered point dumping

AAFitz wrote:HOWEVER, there are many who are point dumping right now. They are purposefully not winning, and they enjoy going to the bottom of the scoreboard...presumably since its the only way they know how to move on the scoreboard at all. They then typically join games with other players and essentially bomb them for their points. This could be solved easily by either enforcement, or just capping the low end of points at 500. Below 500 is such a useless number, there is no reason for those scores.

I'm not sure I agree. The mechanics would obviously be a bit more complex, but isn't wouldn't that just aid with the whole 'screwing more with the point system' that makes point dumping as bad as it is? If the opponent can't lose anymore points from 500, then where would the points for the victor come from? It doesn't really seem like it'd offer much of an advantage

iamkoolerthanu wrote:

SirSebstar wrote:

Mr Changsha wrote:

SirSebstar wrote:

Mr Changsha wrote:You can play properly and still tank your rank on that form.

That was not the question...

True...but your question was irrelevent with regards to doodle ass.

Its an example, your reply is irrelevant to my question. If you take offense to the question asked, please be so kind as to imrpove upon it.
point remains, if you claim to try to win all games, but you make wrong moves like attacking the wrong target and or neutrals, how does that look.. sigh

Except ljex wasn't doing that.. he was playing to win, so idk why his case would be considered point dumping

Are you sure, can you be absolutely sure? besides, still not an awnser to the question, unless this implies you think acting in sucha way should indeed fall under the guidelines and thus be punishable

To answer your question, IF ljex was losing games on purpose, then yes he could be considered as a point dumper. BUT he wasn't. Or if he was, the c and a mods refuse to show evidence, which is required if a user were to accuse another user.. so are the c and a mods above the law?

I know they do not show gamenumbers to other people then those involved. If it went down as ljex suggested (but i have no confimation of) then i assume C&A has evidence that suggests foul play. Obvioulsy there is a margin of error possible, we are after all human, but just to kick ljex off the site is unlikely. Possible, but unlikely.
in addition, a user has to show gamenumers to an accusation as to simplyfy the case. the VOLUNTEERS that do C&A are good persons, but not mindreaders. If you have done your homework, why make it hard for the C&A mods? So yes they are above the law. information is posted to help C&A mods. C&A mods do not post games with their verdicts. also true. If that makes them above the law i think you need to see it again. it is how it is.

more proof that the admins are [flame removed], not that it was really needed.