Conquer Club's annual revenues...

[jcalebmoore]

!!! Why is there so much hostility to occur in this thread??? Nobody's privacy was invaded. He merely attempted calculating the possible site revenue (which has nothing to do with costs, if you bring costs into it then you are calculating profit, I don't know why people keep bringing costs into it). Asking someone how much money they make is rude, but calculating the revenue of a business has never, and never will be, rude, immoral, or unethical. Sheesh!

nice post!

Stupid post....

I can tell that you've never owned a business, so I can't exactly expect you to understand. I'll help. Why don't you take a guess at the annual revenue of the fast food establishment at which you dunk fries in grease, and post it on the bulletin board next to your schedule. Even the 16 year old night manager will be able to help you understand why that is in poor taste.

[khazalid]

actually ive always found that 16 year old night managers taste pretty good

[friendjonny]

Of course I've never owned a business. I'm in college, I can't afford to start one. And there is nothing unethical about your example concerning the fast food restaurant. In fact, fast food chains (and other businesses) post their annual revenues even if they're bad because it is knowledge that they know the public is interested in.

However, it is unethical, and frankly disrespectful, of you to just assume that I work at a fast food place, especially for the sole purpose of discrediting whatever I have to say.

[Molacole]

to all the people bitching about ethics and all that hoo ha!

Why is it OK to play the stock market, but figuring out how much a business is worth/generates is unethical? I seriously don't understand the logic behind these complaints.

Maybe it isn't any of our business, BUT the information isn't hard to come by if you're really looking for it. You can find all kind of websites that offer annual reports and financial reports of every business in the United states online. Yes there is even a canadian one!

[Bean_]

Of course I've never owned a business. I'm in college, I can't afford to start one. And there is nothing unethical about your example concerning the fast food restaurant. In fact, fast food chains (and other businesses) post their annual revenues even if they're bad because it is knowledge that they know the public is interested in.

However, it is unethical, and frankly disrespectful, of you to just assume that I work at a fast food place, especially for the sole purpose of discrediting whatever I have to say.

Moreover, one should note that an awful lot of people are being paid an awful lot of money on Wall Street to try to figure out what business entities are making (revenues, expenses, profits) before they release their financial results. That's all this is; a portion of a business valuation exercise.

[Molacole]

!!! Why is there so much hostility to occur in this thread??? Nobody's privacy was invaded. He merely attempted calculating the possible site revenue (which has nothing to do with costs, if you bring costs into it then you are calculating profit, I don't know why people keep bringing costs into it). Asking someone how much money they make is rude, but calculating the revenue of a business has never, and never will be, rude, immoral, or unethical. Sheesh!

nice post!

Stupid post....

I can tell that you've never owned a business, so I can't exactly expect you to understand. I'll help. Why don't you take a guess at the annual revenue of the fast food establishment at which you dunk fries in grease, and post it on the bulletin board next to your schedule. Even the 16 year old night manager will be able to help you understand why that is in poor taste.

I'm a sub contractor so yeah it's like owning my own business, but they provide the tools and pay me tax free money.

I heard flipping burgers can be fun though. Afterall life is what you make of it!

[hwhrhett]

Of course I've never owned a business. I'm in college, I can't afford to start one. And there is nothing unethical about your example concerning the fast food restaurant. In fact, fast food chains (and other businesses) post their annual revenues even if they're bad because it is knowledge that they know the public is interested in.

However, it is unethical, and frankly disrespectful, of you to just assume that I work at a fast food place, especially for the sole purpose of discrediting whatever I have to say.

Moreover, one should note that an awful lot of people are being paid an awful lot of money on Wall Street to try to figure out what business entities are making (revenues, expenses, profits) before they release their financial results. That's all this is; a portion of a business valuation exercise.

except that all businesses on the stock market chose to be listed there. where lack will not likely ever opt for an IPO

[jcalebmoore]

Of course I've never owned a business. I'm in college, I can't afford to start one. And there is nothing unethical about your example concerning the fast food restaurant. In fact, fast food chains (and other businesses) post their annual revenues even if they're bad because it is knowledge that they know the public is interested in.

However, it is unethical, and frankly disrespectful, of you to just assume that I work at a fast food place, especially for the sole purpose of discrediting whatever I have to say.

I was trying to help you understand that anyone, with even a modicum of wisdom in this realm, including a night manager at McDonald's, would understand this is in poor taste.

Annual revenue information is generally dispersed to business stockholders. In businesses with lots of stockholders, this information is readily available. Smaller businesses, or businesses with smaller ownership groups, generally keep the details of their general ledger private. This is why something like accountant/client privilege with regards to confidentiality exists. Do you own stock in CC?

If you don't know what you're talking about, it's best not to get involved, and particularly, not to tell those who do know, what to do.

[Bean_]

Of course I've never owned a business. I'm in college, I can't afford to start one. And there is nothing unethical about your example concerning the fast food restaurant. In fact, fast food chains (and other businesses) post their annual revenues even if they're bad because it is knowledge that they know the public is interested in.

However, it is unethical, and frankly disrespectful, of you to just assume that I work at a fast food place, especially for the sole purpose of discrediting whatever I have to say.

Moreover, one should note that an awful lot of people are being paid an awful lot of money on Wall Street to try to figure out what business entities are making (revenues, expenses, profits) before they release their financial results. That's all this is; a portion of a business valuation exercise.

except that all businesses on the stock market chose to be listed there. where lack will not likely ever opt for an IPO

yes, except that analysts are still trying to tease out non-public information with respect to public companies. Not to mention PE firms that do need to value privately-held businesses during, e.g., the bidding process.

Personally, I don't feel it's in poor taste to speculate how much business a restaurant does each year, or a retail shop, etc. I don't think a website would be any different.

[jcalebmoore]

yes, except that analysts are still trying to tease out non-public information with respect to public companies. Not to mention PE firms that do need to value privately-held businesses during, e.g., the bidding process.

Personally, I don't feel it's in poor taste to speculate how much business a restaurant does each year, or a retail shop, etc. I don't think a website would be any different.

Alright, let's try an example with other obtainable data....

Say from reading your posts, and doing a bit of research, I can figure out what you drive, what city you live in, and your cell phone number. There are private investigators that make good money finding this information. Does that make it any less tacky for me to post that information here?

You don't work for a PE firm, and if you did, this wouldn't be the place to post your findings. I'm not a private investigator, and I don't see any reason to post your personal information here either.

[Bean_]

Of course I've never owned a business. I'm in college, I can't afford to start one. And there is nothing unethical about your example concerning the fast food restaurant. In fact, fast food chains (and other businesses) post their annual revenues even if they're bad because it is knowledge that they know the public is interested in.

However, it is unethical, and frankly disrespectful, of you to just assume that I work at a fast food place, especially for the sole purpose of discrediting whatever I have to say.

I was trying to help you understand that anyone, with even a modicum of wisdom in this realm, including a night manager at McDonald's, would understand this is in poor taste.

Annual revenue information is generally dispersed to business stockholders. In businesses with lots of stockholders, this information is readily available. Smaller businesses, or businesses with smaller ownership groups, generally keep the details of their general ledger private. This is why something like accountant/client privilege with regards to confidentiality exists. Do you own stock in CC?

If you don't know what you're talking about, it's best not to get involved, and particularly, not to tell those who do know, what to do.

I acknowledge that privately-held businesses do not have a disclosure obligation (and can report as much or as little as they want), and owners of small business are very, very sensitive about letting people know how much they make. This is different from having a right to be free from inquiry.

However, you are right that an employee of such a small business would be inviting trouble for himself by openly speculating about the small business' income. I attribute that less to poor taste than to knowledge that the owner is sensitive to discussions of that nature.

An unrelated third party should be free to make those speculations, and I don't think the owner has a reasonable expectation of privacy in information that is publicly available, even though the owner might not like it.

[jcalebmoore]

An unrelated third party should be free to make those speculations, and I don't think the owner has a reasonable expectation of privacy in information that is publicly available, even though the owner might not like it.

The 'might not like it' bit is my entire hang up with this thread. I'm not saying that it's illegal, any more than it is illegal for me to look up your photobucket pictures and speculate on your familial relationships from the data I gather. The fact that you 'might not like it' is in my opinion, reason enough to not do that.

I again reiterate, that I think this is a tactless thread, and should be allowed to die.

[Bean_]

yes, except that analysts are still trying to tease out non-public information with respect to public companies. Not to mention PE firms that do need to value privately-held businesses during, e.g., the bidding process.

Personally, I don't feel it's in poor taste to speculate how much business a restaurant does each year, or a retail shop, etc. I don't think a website would be any different.

Alright, let's try an example with other obtainable data....

Say from reading your posts, and doing a bit of research, I can figure out what you drive, what city you live in, and your cell phone number. There are private investigators that make good money finding this information. Does that make it any less tacky for me to post that information here?

You don't work for a PE firm, and if you did, this wouldn't be the place to post your findings. I'm not a private investigator, and I don't see any reason to post your personal information here either.

That's an interesting point. I suppose it goes to what people feel that a person has an expectation of privacy in. I have some expectation of privacy in my personal contact information, and, in my view, there is less of an expectation of privacy in how a person's business performs financially. I've never viewed the question as, "how much does lackattack make in a year," but as, "how much revenue does this business generate in a year?" If CC were owned as some tiny division of Microsoft, would you have problems speculating about its financial performance?

[jcalebmoore]

That's an interesting point. I suppose it goes to what people feel that a person has an expectation of privacy in. I have some expectation of privacy in my personal contact information, and, in my view, there is less of an expectation of privacy in how a person's business performs financially. I've never viewed the question as, "how much does lackattack make in a year," but as, "how much revenue does this business generate in a year?" If CC were owned as some tiny division of Microsoft, would you have problems speculating about its financial performance?

Probably not. And speculating simply about revenue might not really be an issue. What worries me, is the road that starts us down, seems like it could be a slippery slope. If we're willing to speculate about that, why stop there? Why not speculate about profitability? Why not speculate about the salaries of company employees? Why not speculate about whether or not the car someone is driving is appropriate to their means? Where do you draw the line?

In my opinion, you draw it early, and don't speculate about information that is really none of your concern.

[friendjonny]

Probably not. And speculating simply about revenue might not really be an issue. What worries me, is the road that starts us down, seems like it could be a slippery slope. If we're willing to speculate about that, why stop there? Why not speculate about profitability? Why not speculate about the salaries of company employees? Why not speculate about whether or not the car someone is driving is appropriate to their means? Where do you draw the line?

In my opinion, you draw it early, and don't speculate about information that is really none of your concer

.

In the persuasive/argumentative sections of college classes such as speech and writing classes, we learn that the slippery slope argument is invalid, and for good reason.

"The slippery slope fallacy takes its name from the image of a boulder rolling uncontrollably down a steep hill. Once the boudler gets started, it can't be stopped until it reaches the bottom.
A speaker (or writer) who commts the slippery slope fallacy assumes that taking a first step will lead to a second step and so on down the slop to disaster.
If a speaker claims that taking a first step will lead to a second series of disastrous later steps, he or she needs to provide evidence or reasoning to support the claim. To assume that the later steps will occur without proving that they will is to commit the slippery slope fallacy."
(from The Art of Public Speaking, from the chapter Methods of Persuasion)

How do you reason that simple speculating about website revenues from premium members would result in speculating about the salaries of company employees and such?

Saying something will lead to something else is a fallacy unless you provide reasoning that such a something will lead to something else. "Why wouldn't it lead to something else?" is not reasonable.

[friendjonny]

I must admit, this thread has turned into an interesting debate concerning the ethics surrounding business information.

[jcalebmoore]

In the persuasive/argumentative sections of college classes such as speech and writing classes, we learn that the slippery slope argument is invalid, and for good reason.

"The slippery slope fallacy takes its name from the image of a boulder rolling uncontrollably down a steep hill. Once the boudler gets started, it can't be stopped until it reaches the bottom.
A speaker (or writer) who commts the slippery slope fallacy assumes that taking a first step will lead to a second step and so on down the slop to disaster.
If a speaker claims that taking a first step will lead to a second series of disastrous later steps, he or she needs to provide evidence or reasoning to support the claim. To assume that the later steps will occur without proving that they will is to commit the slippery slope fallacy."

How do you reason that simple speculating about website revenues from premium members would result in speculating about the salaries of company employees and such?

That is a preposterous statement. Raise some objections when people try to spoon feed you terrible information.

Slippery slope reasoning is fundamental to the idea of human thought. Ideas, much like objects in motion, almost always tend to continue on in a given direction. Going further and further. College course study is an example of how that works. If I learn arithmetic, I can use that to learn algebra... etc. It can be seen in the gradual progression in a direction in almost every area of humanity.

Evidence of the slippery slope can be found in practically every thread in every forum on the internet. You start with an idea, and people go in further and further detail in discussion and analysis. Why would that not be evidence enough?

[Risktaker17]

There is no problem with us speculating, but Lack has no responsibility to tell us.

[mibi]

That's an interesting point. I suppose it goes to what people feel that a person has an expectation of privacy in. I have some expectation of privacy in my personal contact information, and, in my view, there is less of an expectation of privacy in how a person's business performs financially. I've never viewed the question as, "how much does lackattack make in a year," but as, "how much revenue does this business generate in a year?" If CC were owned as some tiny division of Microsoft, would you have problems speculating about its financial performance?

Probably not. And speculating simply about revenue might not really be an issue. What worries me, is the road that starts us down, seems like it could be a slippery slope. If we're willing to speculate about that, why stop there? Why not speculate about profitability? Why not speculate about the salaries of company employees? Why not speculate about whether or not the car someone is driving is appropriate to their means? Where do you draw the line?

In my opinion, you draw it early, and don't speculate about information that is really none of your concern.

Why not speculate on the salaries of companies employees. After all, it is just speculation. Or is the act of speculating somehow morally weighted? I often speculate on how wealthy my neighbors are, how wealthy my competition is, whether Brad really loves Angela or if its all a sham. I even speculate out loud to anyone who will listen. "Do you think that Coffee shop will be in business in a few months? I don't, they have hardly any customers." Am I on a slippery slope and in danger of faxing their daily receipts to competing businesses? I don't think so.

Speculation is morally inert, only when we bring our own value judgments to the table to we feel uncomfortable that others have crossed a line that only exists in our heads.

[mibi]

In the persuasive/argumentative sections of college classes such as speech and writing classes, we learn that the slippery slope argument is invalid, and for good reason.

"The slippery slope fallacy takes its name from the image of a boulder rolling uncontrollably down a steep hill. Once the boudler gets started, it can't be stopped until it reaches the bottom.
A speaker (or writer) who commts the slippery slope fallacy assumes that taking a first step will lead to a second step and so on down the slop to disaster.
If a speaker claims that taking a first step will lead to a second series of disastrous later steps, he or she needs to provide evidence or reasoning to support the claim. To assume that the later steps will occur without proving that they will is to commit the slippery slope fallacy."

How do you reason that simple speculating about website revenues from premium members would result in speculating about the salaries of company employees and such?

That is a preposterous statement. Raise some objections when people try to spoon feed you terrible information.

Slippery slope reasoning is fundamental to the idea of human thought. Ideas, much like objects in motion, almost always tend to continue on in a given direction. Going further and further. College course study is an example of how that works. If I learn arithmetic, I can use that to learn algebra... etc. It can be seen in the gradual progression in a direction in almost every area of humanity.

Evidence of the slippery slope can be found in practically every thread in every forum on the internet. You start with an idea, and people go in further and further detail in discussion and analysis. Why would that not be evidence enough?

You just confirmed that you have no idea what the slippery slope argument is. Feel free to slippery slope my ass to the flame wars tho.

[jcalebmoore]

Why not speculate on the salaries of companies employees. After all, it is just speculation. Or is the act of speculating somehow morally weighted? I often speculate on how wealthy my neighbors are, how wealthy my competition is, whether Brad really loves Angela or if its all a sham. I even speculate out loud to anyone who will listen. "Do you think that Coffee shop will be in business in a few months? I don't, they have hardly any customers." Am I on a slippery slope and in danger of faxing their daily receipts to competing businesses? I don't think so.

Speculation is morally inert, only when we bring our own value judgments to the table to we feel uncomfortable that others have crossed a line that only exists in our heads.

I don't have any problem with you speculating. I have a problem with you doing it here. Just as I'm sure you'd have a problem with me starting a thread speculating about whether or not you have issues with your sexual identity. I assure you I'm not trying to be offensive, and really don't care about said topic, but am trying to show how offensive I find this.

[friendjonny]

Of course the slippery slope happens, but you have to have evidence backing up slippery slope predictions.
Of course you can find evidence of the slippery slope in almost every thread and forum on the internet because those would be past examples, not predictions. You are predicting that speculating about business revenues would lead to speculation about employee salaries and such. Such a prediction is only valid if you can reason that such an outcome is likely.

[friendjonny]

I have decided I am not posting in this thread anymore, as it would seem I have only sparked the hostility of others. Sigh... it was an interesting debate topic though.

[jcalebmoore]

Of course the slippery slope happens, but you have to have evidence backing up slippery slope predictions.
Of course you can find evidence of the slippery slope in almost every thread and forum on the internet because those would be past examples, not predictions. You are predicting that speculating about business revenues would lead to speculation about employee salaries and such. Such a prediction is only valid if you can reason that such an outcome is likely.

History is used to predict future behavior, and is considered one of the most valid pieces of evidence as such. That a set of data A in 90% of cases leads to set of data B, would lead us to think that set of data A is 'likely' to lead to B, is completely legitimate and totally applicable.

[jcalebmoore]

You just confirmed that you have no idea what the slippery slope argument is. Feel free to slippery slope my ass to the flame wars tho.

You just used 'slippery slope' as a verb. I'm worried I might be the one with the better grasp of the concept here.