counter cheater alliance

[alster]

The point you seem to be missing is that for many, whether something is technically against the rules and punishable is largely irrelevant. It's the whole notion of fair play and sportsmanship that's being debated here (at least after it was made clear that the "double turn" in question is allowed). The fact that you wax nostalgic about using tricks to pump up your ranking at the expense of others perfectly illustrates the kind of actions some find unpalatable. Some ere on the side of caution in those situations; others constantly push the boundaries, looking for an advantage. I value fair play above all (certainly, above my ranking) and hope to play against and with similar minded individuals. It's clear that I'm not alone.

Seriously, are you mad? What point am I missing here since I clearly stated that I’m not a fan of the move? Or do I fall off the wagon due to the mere fact that I’m not above using the move as a retaliatory measure? In that case your notion of fair play is something that will hamper your gaming now and then.

And again, my nostalgia has nothing to do with using tricks to pump up my ranking at the expense of others. I’m telling you that that was the way freestyle team game ended up being played back then. Albeit we were very early on the field using that tactic, spread. Those were the good old days. Ahh….

[alster]

I'm simply telling you that some people consider "fairplay" isn't strictly defined by what the rules allow (or don't specifically disallow). For instance, it's obvious that the coders wanted to keep players from being able to make two turns in a row. Even though it's apparently possible to still do it in specific circumstances and the coders haven't expressly forbid it, I would not use the technique because:

1. It seems to go against fairplay.

2. Many players don't even realize it's possible and should assume it isn't anyway.

Hmmm… dunno. After having played a few games, people should start getting aware of this possibility. CC has a learning-curve, it takes time to learn the tricks of the trade. Of course one doesn’t realize it looking at the settings, but that’s beside the point. And well. It’s not an easy task to determine the purpose of the creator. I guess there are reasons to believe that this wasn’t considered when the game engine was made. But, on the other hand, this issue has been up for discussions since the dawn of CC, it is still there. Absence of action may be viewed as acceptance (or having more important things to do in life…)

Another example, it’s possible on one of the maps to make a move which – by just looking at the map – does not seem to be possible. Now, of course people will be severely ambushed when that move is made against them the first time. But is it against “fairplay” not to use it? No, not really. It’s better to expose new players to these tricks, let them learn these stuff than making up subjective rules on your own.

[detlef]

I'm simply telling you that some people consider "fairplay" isn't strictly defined by what the rules allow (or don't specifically disallow). For instance, it's obvious that the coders wanted to keep players from being able to make two turns in a row. Even though it's apparently possible to still do it in specific circumstances and the coders haven't expressly forbid it, I would not use the technique because:

1. It seems to go against fairplay.

2. Many players don't even realize it's possible and should assume it isn't anyway.

Hmmm… dunno. After having played a few games, people should start getting aware of this possibility. CC has a learning-curve, it takes time to learn the tricks of the trade. Of course one doesn’t realize it looking at the settings, but that’s beside the point. And well. It’s not an easy task to determine the purpose of the creator. I guess there are reasons to believe that this wasn’t considered when the game engine was made. But, on the other hand, this issue has been up for discussions since the dawn of CC, it is still there. Absence of action may be viewed as acceptance (or having more important things to do in life…)

Another example, it’s possible on one of the maps to make a move which – by just looking at the map – does not seem to be possible. Now, of course people will be severely ambushed when that move is made against them the first time. But is it against “fairplay” not to use it? No, not really. It’s better to expose new players to these tricks, let them learn these stuff than making up subjective rules on your own.

For someone quick to refuse comparisons (never with any plausible argument, mind you), you sure like to compare apples and oranges. Not realizing that you basically can't attack anywhere from Brunei or that Egypt and Levant border is one thing. If you get caught with your pants down on that one, tough luck. Yes, that is part of the learning curve.

The issue at hand here is not like that in any way. I've played several freestyle games and am, in general, rather savvy to the intricacies of the game. That said, I didn't know until now that if your turn ended due to timing out, it was not the same as actively ending it. Why the hell should I? Are there other little tricks. If I whistle dixie while attacking will I always get 6's? That is not the same as knowing the borders, or knowing that if two partners share a continent they don't get the bonus, or how the different fortifications work, or remembering to not expose an opponent's buried large armies when attacking, or all the other things that inexperienced players mess up. These, not knowing which loopholes can be exploited, should be the difference between successful and unsuccessful players.

I understand that you are now a clean player and only use unsavory tactics in retaliation, but the whole, "Hey, it's freestyle, deal with it" argument is rather lame. I don't enjoy freestyle for other reasons because I think, even without stupid glitches like this one, minimizes strategy in favor of a fast CPU and willingness to camp at your computer.

[alster]

For someone quick to refuse comparisons (never with any plausible argument, mind you), you sure like to compare apples and oranges. Not realizing that you basically can't attack anywhere from Brunei or that Egypt and Levant border is one thing. If you get caught with your pants down on that one, tough luck. Yes, that is part of the learning curve.

The issue at hand here is not like that in any way. I've played several freestyle games and am, in general, rather savvy to the intricacies of the game. That said, I didn't know until now that if your turn ended due to timing out, it was not the same as actively ending it. Why the hell should I? Are there other little tricks. If I whistle dixie while attacking will I always get 6's? That is not the same as knowing the borders, or knowing that if two partners share a continent they don't get the bonus, or how the different fortifications work, or remembering to not expose an opponent's buried large armies when attacking, or all the other things that inexperienced players mess up. These, not knowing which loopholes can be exploited, should be the difference between successful and unsuccessful players.

I understand that you are now a clean player and only use unsavory tactics in retaliation, but the whole, "Hey, it's freestyle, deal with it" argument is rather lame. I don't enjoy freestyle for other reasons because I think, even without stupid glitches like this one, minimizes strategy in favor of a fast CPU and willingness to camp at your computer.

I’m not comparing apples to oranges I think. Not the way you think at least. On one map, it is possible to make an attack between two countries despite the fact that the map clearly indicates that this should not be possible. It is impossible to know this unless someone tells you, but more likely up until the point when someone makes this attack against you. A loophole? Maybe. The game engine obviously allows for this attack, so it’s being used. Since I’m aware of this possibility, I take it into account and guard against it.

I don’t think the whole, "Hey, it's freestyle, deal with it" argument is lame at all. When entering a freestyle game being an experienced player, one should take the de facto double turn into account.

And if you enjoy freestyle, well, camping in front of your computer comes with the territory. Even ignoring this move, it’s a strategy to wait out your opponents before taking your turn. This may involve logging on after 23.55 hours into a round in order to do your move. It’s all part of the setting. Me, well, I share your opinion, I’m not a big fan of this camping thing, so I stay out of freestyle games.

[detlef]

On one map, it is possible to make an attack between two countries despite the fact that the map clearly indicates that this should not be possible. It is impossible to know this unless someone tells you, but more likely up until the point when someone makes this attack against you.

I've played pretty much every map here and have not encountered this. Guessing that you're not likely to tell me lest we meet up on that map someday. You'll likely want any advantage you can.

There are plenty that aren't obvious like Naval stations, wormholes, etc. But anyone missing those has only him/herself to blame. If there is, in fact, a map in where this exists, then I think it, like the double turn, is a major flaw and one that should be repaired. Nobody should be disadvantaged by something as random as that.

[tahitiwahini]

I've played pretty much every map here and have not encountered this. Guessing that you're not likely to tell me lest we meet up on that map someday. You'll likely want any advantage you can.

LOL, good points detlef.

If there is such a glitch, the fault lies not in the game engine but in the map's xml file.

I recommend everyone spend some time with the Map Analyzer (obtainable from the Utilities and Plugins for Conquer Club thread at the top of the General Discussion forum) and the map for the game they are thinking of playing. This is especially true if you have never played the map before. The tool is fun to use, just click on every country on the map and see which countries are connected to it.

If you do this you will be on a level playing field with people who are familiar with the map. My point is you don't have to become familiar with a map only through game play, you can educate yourself beforehand.

Forewarned is forearmed.

On freestyle, I don't like a game style where you are potentially rewarded for delaying taking your turn. I'm for people taking their turns as soon as they reasonably can, so as you can imagine I'm not a fan of freestyle and generally don't play it. I'm also against the missing turn bonus, deadbeating, and other aspects of the game that encourage delay, but that's another story.

One final point, if such a flaw exists, because the location of the flaw is in the map's xml file, it would be exceptionally easy to correct.

[alster]

I've played pretty much every map here and have not encountered this. Guessing that you're not likely to tell me lest we meet up on that map someday. You'll likely want any advantage you can.

There are plenty that aren't obvious like Naval stations, wormholes, etc. But anyone missing those has only him/herself to blame. If there is, in fact, a map in where this exists, then I think it, like the double turn, is a major flaw and one that should be repaired. Nobody should be disadvantaged by something as random as that.

No, I won’t.

Actually it’s not a major flaw. Nor random. What I’ve heard, it was done on purpose.

Basically, it’s part of the game. Live with it and stop whining. Try to appreciate the complexness of CC instead.

[rluzinski]

Awwww, he wants to keep an advantage over you. How cute.

[Nameless One]

Would it be a good idea to make a master tread about people who abuse the rules like this, people who don't play fair like two stronger players taking out a weak player in a three player game or people who kill newbs just so they can't lose that much pts., and list the names to warn people about it?

Jez... It's not abusing the rules. What is wrong with you people? There are indeed only two rules. Abusing them constitutes cheating. However, playing the game engine may be taking advantages of the engine, but it has nothing to do with the rules. Two different matters.

And: As has been said in the thread already.
- Don’t play freestyle unless you understand the pros and cons of the settings.
- Look at peoples’ feedback, play with people you know etc.

However: Being a CC player is always a process. First you need to learn the game well, this will take a lot of games. Second, once you know the game, you’re always faced with new challenges. The game engine is amended from time to time, new settings and new maps are introduced. This is why people stay, the changes that are made now and then gives us all new challenges we have to adopt to, it keeps us on our feets.

I'm not saying any of these people were cheating, I'm just saying that people who pull stunts like this will piss people off because it's not fair, so this tread will caution people about palying against these people.