FOW: cheating, or strategy?

[PLAYER57832]

I'm in a game right now... Game 6956075

And, a player accused me of cheating because I shared map information that caused him to lose a bonus, and in the ensuing tantrum foed me, (LOL) So my topic to you is what is allowed in FOW chat boxes. Is sharing map info bad sport, or just part of the strategy. I would lean towards the latter obviously.

It is not illegal, but most people would consider it poor sportsmanship.

[Funkyterrance]

Why don't they just make it so a game's chat can be disabled for the entire game? Then if anyone does tell to others it would be by pm and thusly a punishable offense.

[MichelSableheart]

@Sebstar: when he's talking about L4D, he's talking about the computer game, not the clan. Also, even if you think it's odd, I don't think it's a good idea to discuss it in this forum. Bring it up privately or raise it in C&A, I would say.

@HillBilly: a lot of new players have little idea of what they're doing. So when a player shows up who seems to have some idea of what he's doing, that's unusual. When such a new player then also appears to be bragging on the forum, the regulars have a tendency to assume the worst.

CC can be rather exclusive and hostile to newcomers sometimes. Apologies for that.

[Dauntless07]

Yeah, I remember the first time I posted in the strategy forum as a recruit. I gave my opinion on how to play the classic RISK map or something, and someone said "Speaking of multis...." and another "I was thinking the same thing." so players do tend to assume the worst it you seem to know what you're talking about.

[samborski]

Slight distain for newbies only because you don't know how dedicated they are to playing. My experience suggests about 1/3 of newbies don't finish their first game because it moves too slow for them (as in 3 missed turns and your out!). After that, a newbie's intelligence is unknown simply because they are new, not because they must be stupid. Think of meeting a new person in RL. You don't know them so (most of us) don't automatically trust his or her opinion.

I've had the debate regarding FOGs with several players. CC's rules do not prohibit announcing locations (go look, I'll wait), however many people are opposed to it. I view it as a strategy to avoid as many people simply don't like it and this game is supposed to be for fun. I've earned my one and only foe this way as well...

[-Maximus-]

This can all be avoided if no one looks at chat...

[Catarah]

What about me screams "This guy has multiple accounts"? Not seeking to keep an argument going, I'm just curious.

apparently people are surprised if you visit the forums right away and dont screw up your first few games completely.

now i must say that usually, anyone who IS a multi, is caught because they start playing, go into hard settings right away, and know their way around CC, something most newbies don't.

but it is getting a bit tiresome sometimes to see every newbie who doesn't screw up is called a multi.

[D00MandD3A7H]

Agreed! it is strategy. It makes that opponent have to guess where you are located. You can do things that throw your opponent away. I use fog to steal the objective in the Antarctic map board. Cheating? How, because the opponent hid his troops from sight or broke a bonus, is not a good enough reason. It is the way of War, disable the enemies radars and he wont know you are coming!

[tkr4lf]

What about me screams "This guy has multiple accounts"? Not seeking to keep an argument going, I'm just curious.

Your right, I probably should have left the whole "newbie" remark to myself. I don't use that word in an hateful way, I'm old school, we used to just call people newbies because they were new. We didn't use it as an insult. I just wanted to be clear that I knew the guys I was playing with yesterday were new to the game.

Maybe I just should have kept to myself instead of making my first post in a thread like this, oh well. As I said I'm just here for the fun, invite me to a game and I'll show you that I'm not some dishonest, cheating, newbie hating, multiple account using idiot. I haven't had the pleasure of trying a team-based mode yet. How about the three of us become friends on the battle field instead of bickering in this thread and taking it further and further off-topic? You guys can pick the map, odds are I haven't played on it yet.

@Sebstar: when he's talking about L4D, he's talking about the computer game, not the clan. Also, even if you think it's odd, I don't think it's a good idea to discuss it in this forum. Bring it up privately or raise it in C&A, I would say.

@HillBilly: a lot of new players have little idea of what they're doing. So when a player shows up who seems to have some idea of what he's doing, that's unusual. When such a new player then also appears to be bragging on the forum, the regulars have a tendency to assume the worst.

Yup.

I got accused of being a multi when I first got here, because I saw a tab that said forum, clicked it, then proceeded to post in said forum. People around here are jaded. If a new account shows up in the forums, posting, playing games and possibly winning....then they automatically assume that that person is a multi.

Don't worry about it man.


CC can be rather exclusive and hostile to newcomers sometimes. Apologies for that.

[HillBillyUNC]

@Sebstar: when he's talking about L4D, he's talking about the computer game, not the clan. Also, even if you think it's odd, I don't think it's a good idea to discuss it in this forum. Bring it up privately or raise it in C&A, I would say.

@HillBilly: a lot of new players have little idea of what they're doing. So when a player shows up who seems to have some idea of what he's doing, that's unusual. When such a new player then also appears to be bragging on the forum, the regulars have a tendency to assume the worst.

CC can be rather exclusive and hostile to newcomers sometimes. Apologies for that.

Thank you sir, no apologies needed. I assure you I got over it the second I sent my last post off.

I didn't mean to come off at bragging...damn text based communication making me look like an asshole. I'm a laid back good old boy from the south with a long southern drawl and a love for Chess and other strategy games. Like I said I'm just here for the fun.

Lets play sometime, I should be able to be in more than four games at one time soon.

On a personal note I missed my first turn the other day because I was busying watching basketball and fell asleep as soon as I got home. Forgot all about it until I woke up the next morning..missed it by an hour. Now my account is tarnished forever.

I've played more games with randoms now and most of them were Fog of War games. I've not given anyone away or lied about my position in those games, mostly because no one seems to use chat and I'm just learning how other people play. Got my ass kicked on a few new maps, had a blast.

I'll defiantly be sending in my $25 as soon as I'm able. I invited a couple of friends to the place, but we haven't managed to get together and play a game with just us yet. Main reason why I want to upgrade to my membership is so I can host private games for us in the future.

Anyway appreciate it and hope to play with y'all soon!

- The resident HillBilly.

[SirSebstar]

have fun

[sgtWoods]

I wouldn´t mind using FOW info, for example, as a bargaining chip in diplomacy, as long as it´s done in the public chat window ofc. It´s in the grey area, but for me personally - no problem with it.

But as a bad loser leak after elimination as at least one of you mentioned, totally unacceptable.

[Demen]

Maybe it would be a good idea to provide us with the game option to turn off chat. That way both methods are catered for. Just a thought. Would presumably be easy to implement too since it's an omission as oppose to additional code.

[zimmah]

So you think I should leave it to the other players to figure it out for themselves? Even though I've shared some info useful to the other players, they still seem pretty mad at me. I don't think I'll win this game, but I just want to keep the balance of power, you know? Maybe i should just stick with wht I know how to do; no fog and sequential free for all. LOL

balance of power is hard to keep in FoW. it's usualy best to try and get a truce with whoever is looking powerful at your border (and looks trustworthy enough not to attack you in your back) and just totaly destroy everything else, grabbing as many bonusses as you can, and try to leave the enemy guessing where you are exactly.

leave huge stacks of troops in random locations, either visible at someone's border or not visible somewhere bordered by your low troops (to make them think you're weak, and when they try to destroy you, they'll stop at your stack and you can destroy them instead) and leave just a small amount of troops on your real borders, so people will not really think it's giving you someting, because if you had a continent there, you'd protect it right? reverse psychology.

[jgordon1111]

it was my understanding the basic ideal for fow was to be hidden from your opponents,and courtesy in those hidden games you keep what you know to yourself.its your job as a player to read and interperet what is going on in the game log. if you cant do that or mis read it you are in the wrong game. i am in a 2.1 game right now. and made an alliance with cyan,he asked me about green's position and numbers and i reminded him it was fow and even though green was ahead it wouldnt be right to reveal what i knew. i told him though if green got by me he would know first. his next response was lol ok. have your alliances but courtesy dictates dont reveal what you know

[ScavengerType]

I know this thread has already run 5 pages and the question has been attacked from almost all sides but I just wanted to express some of my opinions that have not been expressed by others. Firstly I am pro-talking, I believe like others that it is a strategic decision. In fact in my opinion if you honestly report someone's troop activities to others in hopes of achieving a strategic result (or even just vindictively) it's about the same as reporting from game log or forming an alliance in my book. In reality these are all diplomatic appeals for co-operative activity, even if it's voluntary intelligence sharing. I believe this and still I am very irritated if someone tries to PM me or wall me game info or strategy (unless it's team related in which case they probibly just want immediate attention before my turn).

If you lie about troops or whatnot that's basically a violation of word, probibly worse than breaking a truce because you are lying from the inception of the strategy instead of violating an agreement because of things in the game that have changed. I often play honourably in this respect but am not fully adverse to using these methods and still don't consider them to be rule-breaking, simply underhanded, like kicking someone in the nuts during a fight. For some reason it seems like people hold the violation of a truce as near the worst offence but seriously there are worse things i see these same people do.

I've bronzed in fow, I've done my share of tadling and my share of being a target. I think anyone who calls it cheating is a fuckin crybaby. But obviously the suicide attack is always a risk of reprisal from someone. If there is no hope for someone you must understand that they will/want to make an example with their remaining time to anyone whom they have bad blood with. If you had cancer with only a few weeks to live, an automatic rifle, the address of a corporation's management that was in short pumping you full of carcinogens... What would you do? I mean really? It's a strategic factor you have to consider is what I'm saying.

Also, eliminated players can't actually see anything on the board where their troops aren't (which makes it full of ? marks if they have no territories). So I do not understand what people are saying here. It is a little awkward when an eliminated player doesn't f*ck off and whatnot but they cannot report any of the info in the game to anyone other than what's publicly available in the game-logs. What are people talking about here then? Eliminated players can't report any info they didn't already have.

This said I do not play Feudal, and played games mostly on large maps like first nations Americas, w 2.1 or fractured america, which don't have many specific territory bonuses as region bonuses. I probibly don't understand the pressures of maps like feudal or whatever.

[Woltato]

it was my understanding the basic ideal for fow was to be hidden from your opponents,and courtesy in those hidden games you keep what you know to yourself.its your job as a player to read and interperet what is going on in the game log. if you cant do that or mis read it you are in the wrong game. i am in a 2.1 game right now. and made an alliance with cyan,he asked me about green's position and numbers and i reminded him it was fow and even though green was ahead it wouldnt be right to reveal what i knew. i told him though if green got by me he would know first. his next response was lol ok. have your alliances but courtesy dictates dont reveal what you know

I agree with this. It's very bad sport to announce other players strength and position in fow games. I also think it's bad sport to start broadcasting information about your own troops. I've seen players putting stuff like "I've got over 100 troops so there's no point anyone attacking me". This is also bad sportsmanship in my book.

[ScavengerType]

that reminds me, another thing I thought was off here. Some people believe it's bad form to give specific locations and OK to give generalized versions of the same practical information. How does that work? It seems hypocritical to me, If I say that "cyan seems to have a lot of presence in SE asia" is OK but "cyan has 70 troops on Thailand and 112 on Taiwan, I'm feeling overwhelmed over here." is not. The strategic implications are relatively the same.

IME people who expand too quickly in FOW/other games end up being picked on and there are many strategic alternatives for them, I myself have had someone announce my troop count in a FOW game that was somewhat stagnant with relative accuracy (I could not believe how accurately he guessed it cuz I was hiding troops and everything). I flat out denied it and offered a figure that I thought would fool the 2 remaining parties separately. All I did was give the guy some lower rates. I don't really fault him, he asked me about the rate afterwards and i told him that considdering my vindictive mood after the loss it was hardly unexpected and that I personally rate harder than others and thought that his rate was consistent with his mildly bad sportsmanship. I never foed him and would consider playing him again. I think his announcement damaged me more than announcing any one individual territory (really i wish he had done that instead) and I don't think it violated any rules. In fact if he had a more polite attitude bout it i might have scrapped the bad rate all together.

The lesson here, if your going to f*ck someone over do it with diplomatic flare, they will respect you for it.

[HighlanderAttack]

I'm in a game right now... Game 6956075

And, a player accused me of cheating because I shared map information that caused him to lose a bonus, and in the ensuing tantrum foed me, (LOL) So my topic to you is what is allowed in FOW chat boxes. Is sharing map info bad sport, or just part of the strategy. I would lean towards the latter obviously.

FOW for a reason--it is complete cheating and you should be foed by everyone on this site if that is your belief

[armchair warrior]

I think it can be made clear at the beginning of the game (like house rules). The point is to have fun and there are many ways to play.

[xenowolff]

It is most definitely a strategy. from giving false info, to sharing info to take out a stronger opponent, it happens all the time. both IRL and in this game. I played games of fog on another site, and used both trickery and truth to win. It isn't 'illegal' and it isn't 'poor sportsmanship' its like saying The US joining WWII was poor sportsmanship, instead we should have simply attacked japan and then been done with it.

Strength in numbers. Strength in information. Either way you look at it, its a fair advantage.

[jgordon1111]

but being vindictive when your losing and giving just one side away,isnt sporting.I could see it if your in the middle and its about even and you tell all sides what is going on,if you just have to tell.But telling just one side is vindictive and bad sportsmanship and i just foed you xenowolff. I say we call for a vote on this subject with cc to include this type of behavior as cheating.anyone else.Oh and if anyone doesnt like the idea of calling it cheating please foe me now save the hassle for later. ANY MODERATOR READING THIS PLEASE TELL ME HOW I CAN ATTEMPT GOING ABOUT THIS. Thank you

[Lindax]

It may not be against the rules, but I consider it cheating/abuse.

Lx

[xenowolff]

but being vindictive when your losing and giving just one side away,isnt sporting.I could see it if your in the middle and its about even and you tell all sides what is going on,if you just have to tell.But telling just one side is vindictive and bad sportsmanship and i just foed you xenowolff. I say we call for a vote on this subject with cc to include this type of behavior as cheating.anyone else.Oh and if anyone doesnt like the idea of calling it cheating please foe me now save the hassle for later. ANY MODERATOR READING THIS PLEASE TELL ME HOW I CAN ATTEMPT GOING ABOUT THIS. Thank you

I don't deny that being vindictive in a loosing situation is poor sportsmanship. If information sharing won't help you win, then there is no point in doing it. Doing it out of spite is wrong. But this is a very case-by-case topic. its the same as in-game alliances. they happen all the time IRL, so why can't it happen here? If it isn't a secret diplomacy, then it should be fare game. Same with info sharing.

And I won't foe you for your opinions. You are more than intitled to not just have them, but to voice them and stand up for them. Only through voicing our opinions and civil discussion can we learn to accept one another jgordon1111, and I do so hope that you will rethink your decision to foe me for my thoughts on this subject.

[canadian bacon]

but being vindictive when your losing and giving just one side away,isnt sporting.I could see it if your in the middle and its about even and you tell all sides what is going on,if you just have to tell.But telling just one side is vindictive and bad sportsmanship and i just foed you xenowolff. I say we call for a vote on this subject with cc to include this type of behavior as cheating.anyone else.Oh and if anyone doesnt like the idea of calling it cheating please foe me now save the hassle for later. ANY MODERATOR READING THIS PLEASE TELL ME HOW I CAN ATTEMPT GOING ABOUT THIS. Thank you

I have a problem with your argument. 80-90% of the people who advocate information sharing agree that sharing info when you're dieing to spite your killer is poor form. The main difference in our opinions appears to arise from the strategic use of info sharing while alive and well... You see if you're giving information out while alive and well it should be treated the same as forming alliances and co-operative strikes. You see, when you give info out you are also putting yourself in the spotlight so you need to be sure you're ready for the same shit storm that's going to befall the guy you just pointed your finger at.

I for one think that information sharing is no big deal. I don't do it, but I have no problem with others using information sharing to their advantage for the exact reasons I have described.



I also find you foeing Xenowolf sad. You didn't even give him one response, that kind of closed mindedness keeps you from growing as a person. You don't want to be that guy who thinks he's always right because he forcibly drowns out the voices of dissent do you?