Point Reduction for Kiron?

[jsnyder748]

I feel like Ahunda is very deserving of conqueror. I feel like mc05025 is deserving of conqueror. I feel like isn2 is deserving of conqueror. I felt like rabbiton was deserving of conqueror. I felt like many conquerors deserved to be there (not GLG lol). They, for the most part, played a special way to reach the high rank and were arguably the best at what they did. People may not have agreed with what they did, but if no one pushed the boundaries to reach conqueror it would just be a bunch of battle royal winners or doodle assassin players .

BUT I also feel like Kiron did deserve to be conqueror. Period.

I will tell you why.

1. Kiron was at 4700 points before playing the questionable 8 person game and the three 1 v 1's vs xiangwang. That was wrong of them to do, but if he hadn't done it his points would have been more than enough to be conqueror TODAY.

2. When Kiron was in trouble for playing with a multi. It was never proven to be him playing himself. He said it was a housemate, but they blocked him just in case and kicked Kiron out of his active games for cheating. The bottom line. He ended up LOSING points from having a multi.

3. He is a skilled player, he knows the risks/benefits of when to attack, he knows smart freestyle tactics, and wins vs other good opponents. As a skilled freestyle I will attest to his skill. And while I wouldn't call him better than me (if I had only 4 active games at one time I would easily match his winning percentage and time spent on each game) he is one of the elite players on this website.

I would like to see a new conqueror, much like all of you guys, and maybe reach it myself one day, but a full point reset for what Kiron did is just wrong. You guys have blown what he did way out of proportion just because he is conqueror.

Maybe a 500 point drop would clear the air about any ill begotten points and make the conqueror position more realistic for others. I have asked a few c and a mods what kiron would have to do to get a conqueror medal, but they don't even know because this has never happened before. He is now clear 500 points over Ahunda and if he dropped below a certain number what is to stop him from gaining conqueror again the correct way. Does he not deserve the medal is he loses 500 point and then wins a game to pass Ahunda?

So while i would like some sort of point re-evaluation I voted no to a complete point reset.

[Swifte]

Hi jsnyder, as you can see from the OP, i'm not pushing for a full reset either... my point is only that points gained from cheating should be voided. sorry if the title is misworded in that regard.

Even just resetting points he gained from games with his roommate ought to be enough to put him back on a level playing field with the rest of the CC community. I understand that this is not necessarily an easy task, but in my opinion it is necessary to properly recognize those that represent the true spirit of what it is to be conqueror, and is therefore a task worth undertaking.

[ahunda]

Seeing, that this thread was started & is supported by some clan mates of mine, I´d like to state, that I did not initiate this.

Whilst I appreciate the gesture & their support, I wouldn´t feel comfortable *politicking* my way to the top of the scoreboard.

[trinicardinal]

GLG pulled even bigger abuses and never got a point reset. Just leave the man be and go on with your lives. It's been almost a month now.

quite true... he didn't get the point reset he ended up being kicked out instead... Are you suggesting that the more appropriate punishment is to kick him out?

[xiangwang]

Maybe a 500 point drop would clear the air about any ill begotten points and make the conqueror position more realistic for others. I have asked a few c and a mods what kiron would have to do to get a conqueror medal, but they don't even know because this has never happened before. He is now clear 500 points over Ahunda and if he dropped below a certain number what is to stop him from gaining conqueror again the correct way. Does he not deserve the medal is he loses 500 point and then wins a game to pass Ahunda?

So while i would like some sort of point re-evaluation I voted no to a complete point reset.

Not really, rabbiton will just log back on at 4880sh points lol

[xiangwang]

GLG pulled even bigger abuses and never got a point reset. Just leave the man be and go on with your lives. It's been almost a month now.

quite true... he didn't get the point reset he ended up being kicked out instead... Are you suggesting that the more appropriate punishment is to kick him out?

GLG also flamed like no tomorrow bragging and actively invited noobs to his 1v1 games for farming after being told not too. Kiron for the most part is just minding his own business. Kiron never got any warning. His stripping of medal was not from multi, it was alleged speculated secret diplomacy, but the mods gave in just to be "safe". And GLG got kicked out for flaunting the rules and being in everybodies face, there is a large difference between the two, but a point reset was NEVER considered, so why now? It's been a month now, give it a rest, if someone wants to get to conqueror, they might as well beat 4880 points so Rabbiton doesn't come back and take away anyways.

[trinicardinal]

GLG pulled even bigger abuses and never got a point reset. Just leave the man be and go on with your lives. It's been almost a month now.

quite true... he didn't get the point reset he ended up being kicked out instead... Are you suggesting that the more appropriate punishment is to kick him out?

GLG also flamed like no tomorrow bragging and actively invited noobs to his 1v1 games for farming after being told not too. Kiron for the most part is just minding his own business. Kiron never got any warning. His stripping of medal was not from multi, it was alleged speculated secret diplomacy, but the mods gave in just to be "safe". And GLG got kicked out for flaunting the rules and being in everybodies face, there is a large difference between the two, but a point reset was NEVER considered, so why now? It's been a month now, give it a rest, if someone wants to get to conqueror, they might as well beat 4880 points so Rabbiton doesn't come back and take away anyways.

I'd guess at a similar reason to why people pass new laws... because event show certain new actions/punishments to be necessary to discourage attempts at ill gotten gains. Its called modernising.

[jsnyder748]

Maybe a 500 point drop would clear the air about any ill begotten points and make the conqueror position more realistic for others. I have asked a few c and a mods what kiron would have to do to get a conqueror medal, but they don't even know because this has never happened before. He is now clear 500 points over Ahunda and if he dropped below a certain number what is to stop him from gaining conqueror again the correct way. Does he not deserve the medal is he loses 500 point and then wins a game to pass Ahunda?

So while i would like some sort of point re-evaluation I voted no to a complete point reset.

Not really, rabbiton will just log back on at 4880sh points lol

well, that was with the thought that rabitton wont be a butt munch anymore. The only reason he gets on is because he likes seeing what he did 4 years ago was worth it..

Hi jsnyder, as you can see from the OP, i'm not pushing for a full reset either... my point is only that points gained from cheating should be voided. sorry if the title is misworded in that regard.

Even just resetting points he gained from games with his roommate ought to be enough to put him back on a level playing field with the rest of the CC community. I understand that this is not necessarily an easy task, but in my opinion it is necessary to properly recognize those that represent the true spirit of what it is to be conqueror, and is therefore a task worth undertaking.

Dont worry Swifte. I got what you meant. I was talking about the mindless monkeys who cheer for the point reset when they dont know what they are talking about.

also as far as I know the mods haven't ever done a point adjustment for cheating before because it would either take too much research and gray area guessing or be to objective. SO what we are asking for isnt likely either.

I would maybe suggest Kiron do the point adjustemnt himself by playing 1 v 1's on doodle earth. Not thowing any games of course, but if you play on that map enough your score will go down.

[eddie2]

GLG pulled even bigger abuses and never got a point reset. Just leave the man be and go on with your lives. It's been almost a month now.

quite true... he didn't get the point reset he ended up being kicked out instead... Are you suggesting that the more appropriate punishment is to kick him out?

+1

many complained about him nothing ever happened. then he got banned under the new admin team... many thought glg had something on admin to keep him playing which when the takeover happened first major thing to happen within the first week was to ban him.

[xiangwang]

Maybe a 500 point drop would clear the air about any ill begotten points and make the conqueror position more realistic for others. I have asked a few c and a mods what kiron would have to do to get a conqueror medal, but they don't even know because this has never happened before. He is now clear 500 points over Ahunda and if he dropped below a certain number what is to stop him from gaining conqueror again the correct way. Does he not deserve the medal is he loses 500 point and then wins a game to pass Ahunda?

So while i would like some sort of point re-evaluation I voted no to a complete point reset.

Not really, rabbiton will just log back on at 4880sh points lol

well, that was with the thought that rabitton wont be a butt munch anymore. The only reason he gets on is because he likes seeing what he did 4 years ago was worth it..

Hi jsnyder, as you can see from the OP, i'm not pushing for a full reset either... my point is only that points gained from cheating should be voided. sorry if the title is misworded in that regard.

Even just resetting points he gained from games with his roommate ought to be enough to put him back on a level playing field with the rest of the CC community. I understand that this is not necessarily an easy task, but in my opinion it is necessary to properly recognize those that represent the true spirit of what it is to be conqueror, and is therefore a task worth undertaking.

Dont worry Swifte. I got what you meant. I was talking about the mindless monkeys who cheer for the point reset when they dont know what they are talking about.

also as far as I know the mods haven't ever done a point adjustment for cheating before because it would either take too much research and gray area guessing or be to objective. SO what we are asking for isnt likely either.

I would maybe suggest Kiron do the point adjustemnt himself by playing 1 v 1's on doodle earth. Not thowing any games of course, but if you play on that map enough your score will go down.

I think kiron is playing 1v1 vs dkmaster, i think he lost that game based on chat, just taking dk some time to win due to trench.

[jsnyder748]

I think kiron is playing 1v1 vs dkmaster, i think he lost that game based on chat, just taking dk some time to win due to trench.

you must have misread what I said (and he is losing based on chat and regions). Im saying kiron play A BUNCH of 1 v 1's like 5-10. See how many points he loses. when he gets below Ahunda in score and gains conqueror again then maybe he will receive the medal since he didn't use questionable methods to reach it. unless playing 1 v 1's vs anyone who joins is against the rules (im sure someone will argue with me here).

[Swifte]

Here's a perfectly good example of someone benefiting from secret diplomacy (which is what Kiron was found guilty of) and having points removed for the wins. I don't see why it shouldn't be applied to all such cases.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=103016&hilit=diplomacy&start=60

[jsnyder748]

Here's a perfectly good example of someone benefiting from secret diplomacy (which is what Kiron was found guilty of) and having points removed for the wins. I don't see why it shouldn't be applied to all such cases.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=103016&hilit=diplomacy&start=60

that seemed like a point reset. not points taken based on games won. Where does it say x number of points taken or was he reset to 1000 like it seems to suggest? Not that your wrong, I just couldn't find it

[Swifte]

Here's a perfectly good example of someone benefiting from secret diplomacy (which is what Kiron was found guilty of) and having points removed for the wins. I don't see why it shouldn't be applied to all such cases.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=103016&hilit=diplomacy&start=60

that seemed like a point reset. not points taken based on games won. Where does it say x number of points taken or was he reset to 1000 like it seems to suggest? Not that your wrong, I just couldn't find it

I inferred that they reset based on the appropriate number of points, since king sam counted them up here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=103016&hilit=diplomacy&start=4

[jsnyder748]

I see what you are saying. I visit the c and a quite often and have posted a few threads accusing others. Some right accusations and some wrong.

From reading in a lot of posts there is one reoccurring theme. Whenever someone wants them to lose the points they got from cheating there is usually no middle ground. they either get a reset to 1000 (normally what happens) or are banned in some way. Even when people count all the points up they got from cheating you cant prove that the other person wasn't trying in all games or that you got all the points or even that you counted it perfectly. Some cases are easier I would say, but the kiron/xiangwang one would be ridiculously hard to find the correct number.

For example if they were only cheating in the one 8 person game and three 1 v 1's then you can count those up easy enough. But if they were cheating in every game they played together then that is a whole new number. And how can you prove which games to subtract from a score, who loses points, do people gain points back, where is the exact moment they started, etc...

It is way to much work and way to subjective to find out what a point re-evaluation would be. From experience mods have either done the 1000 point reset or no reset and just punishment.

See what i am saying? even if we ask them to chose an arbitrary number like 500 they have never done it in the past because of all of the variables.

We need to ask a knowledgeable c and a mod what the policy is on point evaluations.

[BigBallinStalin]

GLG pulled even bigger abuses and never got a point reset. Just leave the man be and go on with your lives. It's been almost a month now.

I'm not worried about what's happened to other abusers in the past. I think it is a policy that should be changed. If you get points by cheating, you should not get to keep those points. That is just common sense to me.

You even said yourself, you don't care about other abusers in the past. Well even if for sake of argument, Kiron was an abuser (which I still contest), it was in the past. If you are going to change policy then it should be prospective not retroactive. 99% of change in laws and policy are prospective or retrospective, they don't punish people for things done in the past. The rules should be consistent, you can't suddenly flaunt new rule changes.

xiang, if you give Swifte the benefit of the doubt, then we can accept that the actions by users like GLG don't excuse your cheating, nor does it excuse the cheating of others.

In other words, statements like "GLG pulled even bigger abuses and never got a point reset" are irrelevant.

Should punishments apply retroactively? Maybe that's what you're asking, but that's also irrelevant ITT...

[Lindax]

I remember the good old days, when a point reset was practically standard for cheaters.

Lx

[xiangwang]

GLG pulled even bigger abuses and never got a point reset. Just leave the man be and go on with your lives. It's been almost a month now.

I'm not worried about what's happened to other abusers in the past. I think it is a policy that should be changed. If you get points by cheating, you should not get to keep those points. That is just common sense to me.

You even said yourself, you don't care about other abusers in the past. Well even if for sake of argument, Kiron was an abuser (which I still contest), it was in the past. If you are going to change policy then it should be prospective not retroactive. 99% of change in laws and policy are prospective or retrospective, they don't punish people for things done in the past. The rules should be consistent, you can't suddenly flaunt new rule changes.

xiang, if you give Swifte the benefit of the doubt, then we can accept that the actions by users like GLG don't excuse your cheating, nor does it excuse the cheating of others.

In other words, statements like "GLG pulled even bigger abuses and never got a point reset" are irrelevant.

Should punishments apply retroactively? Maybe that's what you're asking, but that's also irrelevant ITT...

I never gave Swifte the benefit of the doubt, i was just going along hypotheticals in the alternative scenario. I still contest that we were not cheating, but the mods seems to want to play safe or just block us to appease the mob. It doesn't matter, it's not like we can't win games by playing by ourselves (which many of you seem to doubt), just more challenging with higher rankers.

[Lindax]

It doesn't matter, it's not like we can't win games by playing by ourselves (which many of you seem to doubt), just more challenging with higher rankers.

Exactly. That's what we, as honest players, deal with every day!

You're so full of shit it's not even funny anymore. What a fucking loser you are mate(s).

Lx

[rishaed]

It doesn't matter, it's not like we can't win games by playing by ourselves (which many of you seem to doubt), just more challenging with higher rankers.

Exactly. that what we, as honest players, deal with every day!

You're so full of shit it's not even funny anymore. What a fucking loser you are mate(s).

Lx

Hey hey... Don't throw stuff.
That being said, if it doesn't matter then why are you so against it? Let the entire air clear around the issue, and try and make it back to conqueror again. If that happens there will be no reason for anyone to dispute it if you guys are playing clean. Btw I think a 5/600 point reduction might be in order. I don't support a full reset, it basically is removing over 3000+ points from the system. . . Plus from what I have heard it isn't like Kiron isn't a talented player. The fact that he got busted in a cheating report taints the medal though. If he gets it again when he logs on, the punishment effectively hasn't been enforced . IMO if you did the point drop (right around to where Mc and Aho are) take the conqueror medal off the charts for a week or two and then put it back up not only should the medal be fair game, it is possible for Kiron to get it again as long as he knows what he's doing (which some attest to).

[jsnyder748]

It doesn't matter, it's not like we can't win games by playing by ourselves (which many of you seem to doubt), just more challenging with higher rankers.

Exactly. That's what we, as honest players, deal with every day!

You're so full of shit it's not even funny anymore. What a fucking loser you are mate(s).

Lx

*sigh* Lx I wouldn't stoop to anyone's level (not cc level ).

[xiangwang]

It doesn't matter, it's not like we can't win games by playing by ourselves (which many of you seem to doubt), just more challenging with higher rankers.

Exactly. That's what we, as honest players, deal with every day!

You're so full of shit it's not even funny anymore. What a fucking loser you are mate(s).

Lx

I don't get it, I play games without kiron and win. It's not like blocking Kiron and I playing suddenly mean our win rate % will drop significantly or at all (it actually increases for me, one less good player to contend against)

[Funkyterrance]

It doesn't matter, it's not like we can't win games by playing by ourselves (which many of you seem to doubt), just more challenging with higher rankers.

Exactly. that what we, as honest players, deal with every day!

You're so full of shit it's not even funny anymore. What a fucking loser you are mate(s).

Lx

Hey hey... Don't throw stuff.

Seriously though, all name calling aside Lindax has a point. Going through the proper channels to gain the conqueror position is supposed to be more challenging. The first 50-odd people on the scoreboard are probably good enough players to hold their own against the other 49 but some of them earn their points more legitimately than others. The majority of players seem to rather have players fight over the top position on an even playing field as opposed to not and this is only human nature.
I am of the school that thinks that the highest positions ought to be held by the truly best players at this game of risk, not the game of "twist conquer club's titty".(pardon my french)

[Lindax]

It doesn't matter, it's not like we can't win games by playing by ourselves (which many of you seem to doubt), just more challenging with higher rankers.

Exactly. That's what we, as honest players, deal with every day!

You're so full of shit it's not even funny anymore. What a fucking loser you are mate(s).

Lx

I don't get it, I play games without kiron and win. It's not like blocking Kiron and I playing suddenly mean our win rate % will drop significantly or at all (it actually increases for me, one less good player to contend against)

Ok. Are you man enough to join a 7 player escalating game on Classic? Sequential of course, non of that 24 hour freestyle bullshit. Then I'll know if you're actually a good player or just a player who knows how to use freestyle and a a certain map to his advantage. And if you do, how do I know it's you taking your turns?

Lx

[jsnyder748]

^^^^^^^^

haha, I guess because I am minus 2000 on classic from those exact settings it means I am neither a man nor a good player

oh wait....i do join those....I am a man....just not a very good one....oh no wait....that is how I lose my rank