Fog courtesy-what do you think

[Metsfanmax]

If you had just given me your opinion that would have been fine--but you implied I can't handle it--the point was a so called friend-screwed me over on purpose.

Please make up your mind on whether this is a discussion of a tactic in Fog of War games, or a discussion of whether jricart is a jerk.

[phantomzero]

While it would be one more script to manage. Could a script take a snapshot of all games as they start?

[Night Strike]

One can ask all they want for a player to wait before taking his first turn, but nothing says the player has to agree to it. If the player doesn't accept, then too bad. Rate and/or foe accordingly.

While it would be one more script to manage. Could a script take a snapshot of all games as they start?

Doubtful, because the scripts run in your browser, not on the site.

[HighlanderAttack]

One can ask all they want for a player to wait before taking his first turn, but nothing says the player has to agree to it. If the player doesn't accept, then too bad. Rate and/or foe accordingly.

While it would be one more script to manage. Could a script take a snapshot of all games as they start?

Doubtful, because the scripts run in your browser, not on the site.

That is understood--would you extend the courtesy?

[Night Strike]

That is understood--would you extend the courtesy?

Only if it was required in the rules of the tournament or clan war that I'm participating in. I don't do it nor do I expect my opponents to. I consider this exactly like the old freestyle double turning: unless it's blocked by the site, it's fair play for anyone in the game.

[safariguy5]

I've never asked anyone to wait. I try to wait 12 hours if someone asks me, but this has only happened in clan wars and then I defer to the leaders to sort it out.

[HighlanderAttack]

Well it seems there are players on both sides of what common courtesy should be--that being said I will extend this courtesy to the players I know will extend it to me and those that will screw me-I will try and do the same to them.


All good in love an war. Now back to the games for me.

[Army of GOD]

I think I speak for all of us when I say:

Sorry about your little butt.

[Evil Semp]

well i think........................................that these is look like some possible sugestion for implementation delay fog for sugestion forum.

I have suggested as well as others--I think a half a round delay should be implemented.

This is just my opinion and others will disagree--I just wanted to see what the consensus was.

Or maybe there can be an automatic snapshot rather than delaying the start of the game.

I will say that when I play I don't usually think of delaying so the other can see the board before taking my turn.

[Woodruff]

you arent supposed to see what is going on... that is the point... if you cant handle not knowing exactly what the board looks like dont play fog... and there is no advantage to joining a game second, as first turn is random... unless it is freestyle in which case joining second is an advantage regardless of fog...

Really--no advantage to joining second taking your turn and leaving the player that did not see the drop wondering what two or three territs you just took. I can handle it--I just think it is cheap. Tells me what kind of player you are.

You already claim to know what kind of player I am, so perhaps this is futile to point out, but I would like to observe that I don't usually check my games unless it's my turn, so if you did this in a game against me you'd just be wasting time. In fact I imagine this is true for most of the people on this site, who are not neurotic about their rankings.

Bingo - this is exactly right.

[Woodruff]

you arent supposed to see what is going on... that is the point... if you cant handle not knowing exactly what the board looks like dont play fog... and there is no advantage to joining a game second, as first turn is random... unless it is freestyle in which case joining second is an advantage regardless of fog...

This is just wrong.

Fog is one of the best settings because you can manipulate the game log and throw players off as to moves, but it's ridiculous that you don't allow another player to see the map first.

In a real war you sure as hell would know whether you had troops in Paris and now they are gone.

This is not a problem with how these players play, this is a problem with how ConquerClub has implemented fog. I agree with you that this is a problem with how fog is implemented, but I do not agree with you that this is a problem with how players use the fog to take advantage of it.

Fix the problem, not the symptom. (And when it has been made a Suggestion, it has been roundly shouted down, I should point out.)

[greenoaks]

waiting for the others to see the map had never occurred to me, nor had it bothered me that they have not waited for me to see

i just thought of it as a feature of fog that would even out over many games

[chiefsfan4ever]

I think there are only a few maps that this would make a big difference. Most of the maps that are coming out these days have a lot of auto deploys and what not.

I also believe HA is a good enough player to know what territories were taken without seeing the map.

Also, this is just a game.

[Joodoo]

I think you should make a social group dedicated to playing fog courtesy games, I would be happy to join if there is going to be one.
The "Lone Rangers" group was made so its members could dedicate to playing games where no diplomacy would be allowed.

[Frito Bandito]

I've never thought of asking for a delay on starting a fog map. I've always figured it was just the luck of the draw, and as long as I'm logged on I'll take my turn.

To me part of the problem here is the inherent problems of 1 vs 1 games, I try to limit them so as not to have this sort of concern, but, oh well. It is only a game.

p.s.- I always enjoy playing against you HA:)

[evilkingjay]

If I'm asked to wait, I'll wait.

But since I don't expect people to wait for me (and I never ask anyone to wait), I'll play my turn immediately if there was no agreement beforehand.

edit: Though I have always thought it's silly that the log doesn't tell you what territories you lost.

I agree with bones. Reasons: time of day difference- example; if Im in a game where the second person joins at 4:00 am in the morning my time and I work till 5 pm, the 12 hour window will pass without me being able to see what happens anyways since I cant take the time before I leave for work to take my turns. So the fact that people from all over the world take thier turns at all times during the day I cant really expect them to wait till I can see it. I also have a 3 1/2 month old baby which sometimes I cant get on till my wife gets home from work to take the baby so I can take my turns. More often than not, 1st turn in a 1 vs 1 is an advantage that fog of war doesnt change. The only way in fog that it matters is if you watch as the turn happens because knowing what they take doesnt matter as much as how many troups are left over there when they take it. If the territ taken and from where is typed in chat it doesnt do anything. The territ taken isnt really that important..do you also have to tell how many troops are where...if there are neutrals in a surrounding territ? How much information has to go in chat? And really after a recent clan game where we were contacted by the clans minister of war about us waiting to take our turns and we responded by telling them we would try and get the messege out for people to wait... and got upset when we wouldnt agree to start the game over if someone took the turn early...very first fog game to start one of thier players took a turn less than 5 minutes after the game initiated. Me and my teammate was going to wait if we went first... I am re-evaluating if I want to agree before hand anymore, unless specified by clan leaders.

The only real fix to make sure it happens is in fog games...once everyone joins, have a built in delay of 12 to 24 hours before someone can take a turn. Or like someone stated... instead of having the option to take a snapshot... one is automatically taken when game initializes. It sucks not being able to see the whole map...but saying where an attack happens from and to in chat has no importance in the game.

PS-Sorry so long

[Uncle Death]

I never put much thought to this before. It really makes no sense for the log not to tell you what territories you lost, fog or not. I don't think you would have to expect or extend the courtesy if the design of play was not flawed. The purpose of fog is to hide what's going on behind the lines of battle, not to hide what territories you lost that turn. Having said that, I don't think it's that big a disadvantage. I do think it could be corrected however by identifying what you yourself lose each turn.

[mgconstruction]

I asked a so called friend jricart not to take his turns in a three game series until I had a chance to see the drop. We are in a tourney where he actually would not join until I joined so he could see the drop. So he joins the games and immediately takes all three turns taking full advantage of the fog situation. Since cc does not have a delay to the start of fog games players that join second can take this advantage. I think it is really cheap. I have always communicated with players about agreeing to not take a turn until they see the drop and this is the first time someone has taken pure advantage of a situation.

Just curious what other players think about it.

While in theory all players seeing before game play would be nice. If I join a fog game last & don't get the start I take a snap shot. If I do get the start I don't wait because I only play once a day usually and would probably miss my turn. However I would never wait to join a game last in hopes I could get a first turn without the other player seeing on purpose. That's just cheap in my opinion but what ever, all is fair in love & war i guess.

On a personal note, I think when it comes to you & Jricart both of you want to beat each other so bad that courtesy, gentlemen agreements or even simple gamesmanship goes out the window.