Fog courtesy-what do you think

[HighlanderAttack]

I asked a so called friend jricart not to take his turns in a three game series until I had a chance to see the drop. We are in a tourney where he actually would not join until I joined so he could see the drop. So he joins the games and immediately takes all three turns taking full advantage of the fog situation. Since cc does not have a delay to the start of fog games players that join second can take this advantage. I think it is really cheap. I have always communicated with players about agreeing to not take a turn until they see the drop and this is the first time someone has taken pure advantage of a situation.

Just curious what other players think about it.

[lordhaha]

It's based on a war game so.......do you think unmaned drones are fair? Where the F*Ck did that missile come from????

Okay only joking, bad sport on his part. But don't know if some one who is logging on once a day could really wait for oposition to take snapshots.

[Qwert]

well i think........................................that these is look like some possible sugestion for implementation delay fog for sugestion forum.

[Ace Rimmer]

*insert rant about how lack is making this game easier for everyone by incorporating add-ons into the site, and he'll just remove the fog option to make it easier for anyone*

[HighlanderAttack]

well i think........................................that these is look like some possible sugestion for implementation delay fog for sugestion forum.

I have suggested as well as others--I think a half a round delay should be implemented.

This is just my opinion and others will disagree--I just wanted to see what the consensus was.

[Lubawski]

I always offer 12 hours from when a game starts because it's the decent thing to do. I think a delayed start would be awesome. It would solve the problem of people who are assholes. And waiting to join a game so they can't see a snap is a dick move in the first place. Some people will do anything to win.

For those who can only get on once per day, post what was there in the chat for the other person who didn't get to see the initial drop.

[HighlanderAttack]

I always offer 12 hours from when a game starts because it's the decent thing to do. I think a delayed start would be awesome. It would solve the problem of people who are assholes. And waiting to join a game so they can't see a snap is a dick move in the first place. Some people will do anything to win.

For those who can only get on once per day, post what was there in the chat for the other person who didn't get to see the initial drop.

Great example of good sportsmanship:

Actually I did this earlier today and it is a Finals:

Game 8141242

2010-12-16 09:43:04 - HighlanderAttack: sorry--hope u saw--ran up on this game and started
2010-12-16 09:43:09 - HighlanderAttack: here is what I did
2010-12-16 09:43:18 - HighlanderAttack: 2010-12-16 09:42:12 - HighlanderAttack assaulted Spain from Portugal and conquered it from uckuki
2010-12-16 09:43:28 - HighlanderAttack: 2010-12-16 09:42:32 - HighlanderAttack assaulted Estonia from Saint Petersburg and conquered it from uckuki

[Metsfanmax]

You can always count on HA to pat himself on the back ;P

[Rodion]

1 - You could call it deontologically wrong regardless of friendship/trust/previous agreement, but I'll not go through this route since this is a competitive war game, which in my opinion should be governed by utilitarian ethics.

2 - As this is a competitive war game, all parties should behave cautiously, expecting the worst from their opponent. When it's foggy, I always try to join last (or ask my partner to do so) in order to avoid the disadvantage you're mentioning. If someone on the other side is behaving the same way, I solve the deadlock by walling them and offering to join simultaneously so nobody gets the shaft.

3 - The exception to trying to join last occurs when I know/assume the other party will extend me the courtesy in case they join last and start. This happens either when both parties have achieved a certain degree of friendship/trust or when there's a specific (tournament/ clan challenge) rule regulating the subject.

4 - The fact that you and jricart appear to be friends should be enough to trust him not to shaft you, so I'd say that was low from his part considering that you only dropped your guard by joining first because you trusted him not to use the situation against you. However, I should note I also consider you somewhat blameable for misplacing trust.

5 - If you want to see it under the light of game theory, the fact that you constantly play the same people over and over again leads to the conclusion that we're in some sort of "iterated prisoner's dilemma" and that screwing people over for immediate benefit is bad simply because they'll later get the chance to retaliate.

[HighlanderAttack]

4 - The fact that you and jricart appear to be friends should be enough to trust him not to shaft you, so I'd say that was low from his part considering that you only dropped your guard by joining first because you trusted him not to use the situation against you. However, I should note I also consider you somewhat blameable for misplacing trust.

I did actually take the time to send him a pm before joining and I think I added a wall but not sure.

[HighlanderAttack]

You can always count on HA to pat himself on the back ;P

Are you jealous or just an xxxxxxx--I think both--but that is my opinion. Maybe one day you will be a good player, but I doubt it since I see you at srgt usually as you high.

[trapyoung]

It is my biggest pet peeve that people don't extend the courtesy to allow you to see a fog map. I suggested a rule change to allow for a delay in the start of fog games so a team can't join second, luck into the drop and abuse those who created the game, but it went nowhere. I could care less about saying good luck and shit like that, but if you say good luck and then take a fog turn immediately so I don't have an opportunity to see the map, I get pretty pissed at that.

[Metsfanmax]

You can always count on HA to pat himself on the back ;P

Are you jealous or just an xxxxxxx--I think both--but that is my opinion. Maybe one day you will be a good player, but I doubt it since I see you at srgt usually as you high.

What would I be jealous of? The fact that you have enough spare time to worry about your rank on a Risk website, and complain even when people play by the rules? You can keep that for yourself, thanks.

[ljex]

I asked a so called friend jricart not to take his turns in a three game series until I had a chance to see the drop. We are in a tourney where he actually would not join until I joined so he could see the drop. So he joins the games and immediately takes all three turns taking full advantage of the fog situation. Since cc does not have a delay to the start of fog games players that join second can take this advantage. I think it is really cheap. I have always communicated with players about agreeing to not take a turn until they see the drop and this is the first time someone has taken pure advantage of a situation.

Just curious what other players think about it.

It bothers me that he wouldnt join till you did and then took blatant advantage of this, though there it is not against the rules it is a cheap strategy. I dont mind people taking their turns before 12 hours if they are just taking their turns but for someone to blatantly take advantage of the situation is annoying. Especially if you consider yourself friends with this person.

[ljex]

You can always count on HA to pat himself on the back ;P

Are you jealous or just an xxxxxxx--I think both--but that is my opinion. Maybe one day you will be a good player, but I doubt it since I see you at srgt usually as you high.

What would I be jealous of? The fact that you have enough spare time to worry about your rank on a Risk website, and complain even when people play by the rules? You can keep that for yourself, thanks.

Lets keep this as a discussion of this tactic of play

[Metsfanmax]

You can always count on HA to pat himself on the back ;P

Are you jealous or just an xxxxxxx--I think both--but that is my opinion. Maybe one day you will be a good player, but I doubt it since I see you at srgt usually as you high.

What would I be jealous of? The fact that you have enough spare time to worry about your rank on a Risk website, and complain even when people play by the rules? You can keep that for yourself, thanks.

Lets keep this as a discussion of this tactic of play

It's a waste of time to complain about this. The current situation simply gives the first person to go another advantage. There are two possible approaches - either attempt to convince everyone you play with to agree to this condition, or just do it yourself, so that everyone's on the same footing. One sounds easier than the other.

[Krissan]

I try to do this, especially in later stages of tournaments. If I hold off on joining a fog game to ensure I get to see the map, I always give my opponent that chance too.

If we join at the same time and my opponent starts taking his turn, then I usually don't care about it.

Then again, you have to have some understanding that everyone can't be logged on every four hours. Some periods I'm only able to log in once every day and take all my turns at once - there's no practical way to do this then.

Same golden rule as always applies: Don't be a douche. If there's a huge advantage for you to take your turn before the opponent sees the map - then either give him the chance to see it, or post in the chat what he was able to see.

[KraphtOne]

you arent supposed to see what is going on... that is the point... if you cant handle not knowing exactly what the board looks like dont play fog... and there is no advantage to joining a game second, as first turn is random... unless it is freestyle in which case joining second is an advantage regardless of fog...

[HighlanderAttack]

you arent supposed to see what is going on... that is the point... if you cant handle not knowing exactly what the board looks like dont play fog... and there is no advantage to joining a game second, as first turn is random... unless it is freestyle in which case joining second is an advantage regardless of fog...

Really--no advantage to joining second taking your turn and leaving the player that did not see the drop wondering what two or three territs you just took. I can handle it--I just think it is cheap. Tells me what kind of player you are.

[Metsfanmax]

you arent supposed to see what is going on... that is the point... if you cant handle not knowing exactly what the board looks like dont play fog... and there is no advantage to joining a game second, as first turn is random... unless it is freestyle in which case joining second is an advantage regardless of fog...

Really--no advantage to joining second taking your turn and leaving the player that did not see the drop wondering what two or three territs you just took. I can handle it--I just think it is cheap. Tells me what kind of player you are.

You already claim to know what kind of player I am, so perhaps this is futile to point out, but I would like to observe that I don't usually check my games unless it's my turn, so if you did this in a game against me you'd just be wasting time. In fact I imagine this is true for most of the people on this site, who are not neurotic about their rankings.

[trapyoung]

you arent supposed to see what is going on... that is the point... if you cant handle not knowing exactly what the board looks like dont play fog... and there is no advantage to joining a game second, as first turn is random... unless it is freestyle in which case joining second is an advantage regardless of fog...

This is just wrong.

Fog is one of the best settings because you can manipulate the game log and throw players off as to moves, but it's ridiculous that you don't allow another player to see the map first.

In a real war you sure as hell would know whether you had troops in Paris and now they are gone. You might not know where parties are amounting or reinforcing if you are not near the area but it's just ridiculous that you wouldn't know or see what you were adjacent to and that's how it should be in for here. By joining second and lucking into first turn, you get the benefit of (1) the first turn, (2) the first drop of troops and (3) seeing the board without allowing the other person to see it.

If you own 2/4 of south america and I own the other 1 and the last territory is neutral, if you can spam your turn and make it so I can't see what's in South America then if more than 1 of your territories is hidden, I have to guess whether you have it and would waste a turn breaking a bonus you didn't have. But, had I been able to see the map first, I would have known and a more fair fight would have resulted.

[KraphtOne]

you asked for opinions dude... that's mine... i don't care if someone takes their turn before i see the map... don't care if i take my turn before they see theirs...

you should have named the topic "post here if you agree with me"

and as for the "Tells me what kind of player you are" comment... yeah, i'm not a pussy

[HighlanderAttack]

you asked for opinions dude... that's mine... i don't care if someone takes their turn before i see the map... don't care if i take my turn before they see theirs...

you should have named the topic "post here if you agree with me"

and as for the "Tells me what kind of player you are" comment... yeah, i'm not a pussy

If you had just given me your opinion that would have been fine--but you implied I can't handle it--the point was a so called friend-screwed me over on purpose.

if you cant handle not knowing exactly what the board looks like dont play fog

I have proven I can handle every style except freestyle but I have a dinosaur pc that would not allow me to do real freestyle for now. One day I will learn that as well. My opinion still stands that is is common courtesy to allow someone to know where there armies were.

[Bones2484]

If I'm asked to wait, I'll wait.

But since I don't expect people to wait for me (and I never ask anyone to wait), I'll play my turn immediately if there was no agreement beforehand.

edit: Though I have always thought it's silly that the log doesn't tell you what territories you lost.

[hotfire]

you arent supposed to see what is going on... that is the point... if you cant handle not knowing exactly what the board looks like dont play fog... and there is no advantage to joining a game second, as first turn is random... unless it is freestyle in which case joining second is an advantage regardless of fog...

i agree...and guess what i have my golden eyes medal without ever taking one snapshot or looking at one....i must be crazy