FOW: cheating, or strategy?

[Dauntless07]

I'm in a game right now... Game 6956075

And, a player accused me of cheating because I shared map information that caused him to lose a bonus, and in the ensuing tantrum foed me, (LOL) So my topic to you is what is allowed in FOW chat boxes. Is sharing map info bad sport, or just part of the strategy. I would lean towards the latter obviously.

[jrh_cardinal]

absolutely bad sport, I hate it when people do that. The goal of fog of war is to hide yourself from and deceive as many of your opponents as much as you can. There's always gonna be somebody who has a good basic idea of where you are, but they should not tell other people.

I was playing an 8 player foggy feudal epic one time, and I eliminated someone, so I had 2 castles, the other 6 people still only had 1. The player I eliminated then proceeded to tell everyone else exactly where I was. I was basically unfortified because I went all out to eliminate him, and was just getting my stacks up on my borders. Until then, no one knew which quarter of the board I was on. The two players on the quarter next to me then teamed up and destroyed me. That should not happen, it's why you play FOW, so people don't know where you are. It ruins the whole point if some asshole tells everyone

[Dauntless07]

So you think I should leave it to the other players to figure it out for themselves? Even though I've shared some info useful to the other players, they still seem pretty mad at me. I don't think I'll win this game, but I just want to keep the balance of power, you know? Maybe i should just stick with wht I know how to do; no fog and sequential free for all. LOL

[jrh_cardinal]

yes, other players should have to figure it out themselves. Sure, it's useful info, and it definitely helps you, but so does secret diplomacy. As I said, in fog the whole idea is to hide from as many players as possible, you are making it impossible for them to do that, which ruins the aspect of fog. If oyu want to know where everyone is, play sunny

[darth emperor]

I don't consider it cheating...is just a part of the strategy(even if you lie saying that) it's true that the point is that no one knows where are... but you can share all the info you want...just like alliances some people accept is as strategy other think is completely cheating.But of course should be all in game chat.

Well if you see the case that pointed out jrh yes it's absolutely bad sport,as sore loser....it didnt help at all the other player because he was already dead... but let's put this example: You have 2 castles and one player (yellow) finds you,but can't attack you and he sees that obviously he is going to die because you can kill him easily. Yellow could say jrh is in ____ like that the other player would start attacking you and then you woudn't be able to kill yellow.Reveal the info that you need the people to know,that's part of strategy.

But also think that everytime you tell where's someone you tell other people where you are. Just telling where is everyone you find it doesnt help at all. You should know when and how to tell and see how would be beneficial to you against the incovenients(just like alliances)

[wercool]

but it is still perfectly legal.

[poohcrumbs]

I was under the impression it was illegal to tell in FOW..that being said before i knew that i use to share "incorrect" FOW information - reason being: players like to take advantage of that so i would say so and so has a bonus when he really does NOT..and someone always went and attacked that player ...worked well lol

[squishyg]

it's really poor form to announce locations in fog. i play for fun, and that would ruin the fun for me, to say nothing of the cheap tactics of sabotaging someone's game in that way.

[Streaker]

I think it depends more on the situation. Like stated above, if you are killed and go on after that giving away location and stack details for the sake of payback, it's just very bad sportmanship.

However, if you are in the game, the chat is open game. Say what you want, when you want. The other people can't even be sure you aren't lying, you might be directing them into a crossfire all they know.

I'm a fan of the second part, deceiving and misleading, and sometimes it's just necessary to level the field.

Just never, EVER, after you are eliminated

[Kalano Sanchin]

I agree never give out Fog of War information once you are eliminated.

There are other ways to give out FoW information though. You could say the red player is very strong and that he is going to win unless someone helps me attack him. Its not giving away locations and your allowing the other players knowledge of where red is to make a decesion.

Saying that though people can often frown upon this strategy too its just an alternative to giving away locations. It works less in feudal games though.

[jleonnn]

I suppose it is not against the rules, but it is ettiquite... the unwritten rules

[dwilhelmi]

What about publicly drawing attention to information you gained, not through your own position, but from public records? For example, in a foggy classic, if someone has all of Africa, it will say in the game log that they received "3 troops for holding ?". Obviously, to anyone reading that, the player has all of Africa, as no other bonus will give you 3. Would drawing attention to this fact in chat be bad etiquette?

Personally, though, I would see nothing wrong with announcing positions based off of your own exploration. By itself, I wouldn't even go so far as to call it cheap, or bad etiquette, or anything other than a perfectly valid strategy. That being said, bad etiquette is determined, not by personal choice, but by group consensus. So, if it is generally held to be bad etiquette, then it is bad etiquette.

I see it as very much similar to in chat alliances. Perfectly legal, legitimate tactic, but many people find that to be in poor taste as well.

[Trephining]

If you're still active in the game I don't see anything wrong with it. The chat is part of the game, to be used for purposes of:
a) manipulation
b) diplomacy
c) deceipt
It is similar to forming an alliance.

[Chuuuuck]

Winning standard games is not based off of game play like so many people would lead you to believe. A lot of it is diplomacy, alliances, and manipulation.

If you are still in a standard game then not only do you have the right, but you should take advantage of saying anything you want in game chat, whether it be true or false about anything you know in the fog. Your goal is to improve your own position in the game. In the example above, it is very poor strategy to announce stuff after you have been eliminated, but I still don't think that is wrong either.

In cardinal's example, if he were playing against me, I might of told his position also for the following reason. On a map like that, with 8 players in the game, killing someone who has approximately the same stack as you is suicide for both players. I would probably make it known to him before he killed me that if he did try to kill me and in turn wasted all of his troops and mine, that I would announce that he has nothing left and where he was. I would do this as a deterrent from him being so stupid to actually waste his troops on me and end the game for both of us. If he did it anyway, I would live up to my word in hopes that next time the player believes me.

Not bashing you there cardinal, getting 2 castles is worth it if everyone leaves you alone, but very rarely are people going to leave a very poorly protected castle alone, which means the move you made is suicide most of the time anyway.

So long answer short. You can tell whatever you want in game chat and there is nothing against it in the rules. On top of that, I think everyone that says it is poor etiquette is a poor strategist.

[jrh_cardinal]

I had plenty of troops, I had held the village for two turns before he came out of his castle, but yes, I did need like 2 turns to get my 2 defense next to the bridges and give them plenty of troops to hold, it was flat rate, if you want to win the game you have to be one of the 4 people to get to 2 castles. If you don't think I should have taken it, then we must agree to disagree.

In relation to fog, why do you play fog? Cause personally, I play fog so my opponents can't see my territories. On a normal map like classic, yes they know where I am once I take a bonus (assuming they aren't completely retarded). I am not one of the people that thinks diplomacy is absolutely bad form, though I don't like it too much especially when it gets to "lets kill off all of the other players the duke it out between ourselves". That happens way too often, even if it isn't explicitly said in game chat. But, on a conquest map like Feudal Epic, if I'm smart, besides the player in the castle next to me (who physically sees me obviously), players are not able to find me until everyone left in the game has 2 castles (or more) and by then I have plenty of defenses set up by the bridges. Therefore, it is bad form for the person next to me to tell everyone where I am even if they are still alive. In feudal epic, you pretty much have to take the person next to you before you move on to any other region, otherwise they will just wipe you out from behind. With that in mind, no one (who expects to win the game), should attack outside of their region when they only have 1 castle, unless they know the only person with two castles (the leader of the game at that point) is in the region right nest to them. In fog, they shouldn't know that, that's why I play fog.

In sunny, you have to always worry about everybody, fog breaks down to a few smaller matchups because people don't know where you are. In fog, I don't leave as strong of defenses at times because if I know no one can know where I am, AND it is not smart for people to randomly attack the neutrals next to me at that point in the game, then no one can attack me. That whole strategy is ruined by the game all of a sudden becoming essentially sunny for the other players.

Basically, as long as you are hidden (don't own a bonus in a regular map and see only neutrals in a conquest map) then people shouldn't say anything about where you are, because that just makes the game sunny for everyone else. If I wanted the game sunny, I would have played sunny

[Dauntless07]

Well, the game ended today... for me. Turns out, the other player was so mad about me revealing his 3 reenforcement bonus, he squandered his cards in a suicide attack just to get back at me. He didn't even have enough troops to finish me, and gave an easy 5 cards to the most powerful player on the board who immediately wiped me out. How's that for bad form eh; almost makes up for my questionable tactics huh?

[jrh_cardinal]

you know the default color is black, right? You and Lx are gonna make my eyes burn out (though his bright yellow is much worse than yours)

[squishyg]

What about publicly drawing attention to information you gained, not through your own position, but from public records? For example, in a foggy classic, if someone has all of Africa, it will say in the game log that they received "3 troops for holding ?". Obviously, to anyone reading that, the player has all of Africa, as no other bonus will give you 3. Would drawing attention to this fact in chat be bad etiquette?

I would advise doing it carefully, perhaps in the guise of a compliment. For example, "Nice move Player X! You really earned that bonus!".

You could also suggest to another player that they not waste their time attacking you because there are bigger fish to fry. For example, "Hey Player Y, no sense in us beating the heck out of each other when other players are getting bonuses every turn".

It's the difference between telling your friend those jeans make her look fat and suggesting that relaxed fit would suit her better than skinny hip huggers.

[Dauntless07]

I know, but I like this color. There, I'll write here in this bland black from now on. I knew colors like bright yellow would really be anoying, I picked this dark red knowing that.

The vindictive noob asking why he could no longer see my posts also gave me a lol.

[rockandrull]

All is fair in love and war.
(Let's hope there's no love going on on this site!)

[wolfpack0530]

This problem happens alot in multiplayer Arms Race. As soon as one player controlls half of the board, the remaining players NEED to stop attacking each other and work together or it is certain doom.

The chat usually will read: Blue has all of USA. take a spy or we both die!

OR

I have been kicked out of USA. we are in big trouble.

I usually dont make a habit of revealing fog positions or troup values. but i certainly relay reletive strength to the other players.

I will say something like: I was unable to break red that turn, he has a big deploy coming.

I did not reveal position, or troup values with that statement, but it is as effective as saying, red has a 25 stack on Siam!

[jrh_cardinal]

wolfpack, I agree with you, I'm cool with people saying "reds about to get a big deploy" or whatever, everybody who knows 1 thing about how to play fog can figure out by that time that red has aussie (using your example). My problem comes when there is no way for people to know where I am, iow I'm playing well, I've continued to hide my position, then some asswipe says "red's (me) got a 25 stack on Siam" when I don't own Aussie, so no one else has any clue where me or my stacks are.

That is an extremely hypothetical situation btw, don't worry, I wouldn't have a 25 stack on Siam w/out Aussie or someone in Aussie who needs major protection in esc.

[Crazyirishman]

I've always found that being subtle in the way you talk about others positions will usually stop them from getting angry.

[Dauntless07]

I guess my game goes as an example. Some players are vindictive. I failed to anticipate this side of my opponet, and in the ensuing suicidal attack, he allowed another player to take my cards and likely win the game. To me, it doesn't matter now. I'm eliminated, and he has foed me, so I'll never play him again anyways; though I may come upon another player like that.

[Karsinogeeni]

Definitely strategy. The rules don't state anything about revealing the positions of the others nor giving out false information. The description of FOW just says: "The fog of war masks enemy positions that are not adjacent to your forces (or your team's forces). It also masks region and zone names in the log."

Even if you would get some extra information from the others, you cannot be 100% sure about whats on the map and you still have to hold the picture of the borders and troop strenghts in your head. What comes to the being frustrated when someone tells about your whereabouts and troop strenghts, you can hide it from the others by keeping your troops a bit deeper within your borders.

Talking about that, I remember a game when my neighbour finally decided to stab me in the back. Luckily I had been paranoid and the stack retaliated quickly on my next turn. I also remember a game where I was almost certain that my opponent is holding a big stack inside his pretty well defended territories. I got too greedy and impatient and broke the area to find that he had managed to stack about 60 troops there. Luckily I managed to tear the stack small enough so he couldn't break all my bonuses on his turn.