King Achilles, Can you explain why it is point dumping?

[_sabotage_]

There are thousands of people deadbeating in games that are never called on it. He was called on deadbeating. The usual mod response is: take your turn.

He was not called on point dumping. No one has felt harmed enough by his actions to demand an investigation, no one was rewarded enough by his actions that it be deemed a gross violation.

The rules state a one month ban. Give him a one month ban and if he persists afterwards, give him a permanent ban as per the rules.

Rules are to deter and punish gross abuse. If it were gross abuse, there would have been earlier and more outcrys.

I post in the same forums as AOG, but his posts usually consist of putting me down, and I don't reply. We are not friends. My only point in adding anything to this thread is that gross abuse deserves gross punishment and with a one month ban and the expectation of a permanent ban if the actions continue it is sufficiently deterring abuse and following the rule as it was intended.

[Dukasaur]

Joining games without intending to actually play them out is an abuse of the site. It really is that simple.

Whether you call it "intentional deadbeating" or "point dumping" and any semantic smoke-and-mirrors you want to weave around those two terms is really irrelevant. Bottom line: if you join a game with the intention of not intending to play it out, that's wrong. If you join a game and something comes up in R/L which prevents you from playing it out, we all understand that, but you can't keep joining more games while you're not playing the ones you already have.

The site rules are not written by James McReynolds. They may or may be correcttly worded. Fortunately, the admins aren't strait-jacketed by the wording of the rules. They are free to use common sense to protect the users of the site from people who seek to diminish the quality of their experience here. It's a business, not a public space. There is no specially-protected right to make yourself a nuisance to others.

[_sabotage_]

Who had he made himself a nuisance to?

There are rules, and there should be clear interpretation of them for fairness and clarity. I don't see that.

This is an abuse, but as a precedent, shouldn't the mods start reviewing all point dumping cases that are unreported?

As for not being straight-jacketed, and since this site is run as a business, perhaps they should be. Their freedom has become too broad and arbitrary, wasting resources and causing ill will.

I can't see how having arbitrary rules with arbitrary punishments create a streamline workflow for the site, or a user base that feels the rules are just.

If point dumping is a one month ban, and a second offence is a permanent ban, so be it. If point dumping goes unreported, though is known to the mods, either enforce it or don't. But don't let one guy slide and another hang.

This wasn't reported. So obviously he wasn't being considered a nuisance by those involved. Those involved had no complicity so it being unreported was not an abuse either.

By this ruling, CC has two choices: chaos or order.

If they choose to ban AOG for unreported point-dumping, then they should actively pursue others for the same.

If they choose to make an "indefinite ban" then all cases should be an indefinite ban. Saying that he did this for a long period of time doesn't change the matter. How could you possibly prove that someone caught sooner hadn't intended to do do it for a long period?

That is chaos. Unknown punishment handed out in unknown situations.

Order. Definite punishment for a definite situation.

First instance: one month.

Second instance: permanent.

First instance requires a direct report, second doesn't. Easy peasy everyone can be sure of how the rules will be implemented, mods don't need to go through the hassle. All think it's fair.

Right now the full range of the offence is open to speculation, and interpretation. This should be minimized for the benefit of the site to ensure happy customers and the efficient use of resources.

[lancehoch]

This is an abuse, but as a precedent, shouldn't the mods start reviewing all point dumping cases that are unreported?

If point dumping goes unreported, though is known to the mods, either enforce it or don't.

If they choose to ban AOG for unreported point-dumping, then they should actively pursue others for the same.

How can anyone review something that isn't reported. The mods don't go around looking at every game to see what everyone is doing. If someone reports it, the mods take action. If a mod sees something in a game, he can report it to another mod.

There are thousands of members and only four hunters, three of whom are volunteers. They don't know everything that happens.

This wasn't reported. So obviously he wasn't being considered a nuisance by those involved.

It wasn't initially reported because it only affected each person for a couple of days and he wasn't being as obvious about it. It has now been reported and the hunters are dealing with it. What else do you want them to do?

[_sabotage_]

What was reported was intentional dead beating:

Accused:
Army of GOD

The accused are suspected of:

Other: Intentionally Dead-beating

Game number(s):

Game 15261135
Game 15261064
Game 15260706
Game 15246266
Game 15243080
Game 15243050
Game 15242506
Game 15224840
Game 15223550
Game 15214441
Game 15210173
Game 15204010

And many, many more...

Comments: Fills up for his/her 4 available game slots and does not take a single turn.

And what I would like to happen is:

"Indefinite ban for point dumping"

To read:

"One month ban for dead beating assessed according to the point dumping rule, instead of the normal: take your turn or you will be warned assessment".

[Metsfanmax]

AoG is not point dumping in the traditional sense that the rule was developed for.

Wrong. It was precisely to stop people who are trying to get a lower score.

Pretty sure AOG gives zero shits what his score is.

I'm pretty sure that I have a signed confession that he was point dumping with the intent to get to a score of 1. I am also sure that I already said that...

Yes, but that's not because he cares what his score is, it's because he likes trolling people.

[Serbia]

They may or may be correcttly worded.

Hopefully more correctly worded than a Dukasaur post though.

Bollocks.

[Dukasaur]

They may or may be correcttly worded.

Hopefully more correctly worded than a Dukasaur post though.

Bollocks.

You got me on that one...

[owenshooter]

soooo, you wouldn't qualify not taking a turn for multiple years in an effort to get to 1 point, as a gross abuse? isn't that kind of text book?-Jésus noir

[_sabotage_]

soooo, you wouldn't qualify not taking a turn for multiple years in an effort to get to 1 point, as a gross abuse? isn't that kind of text book?-Jésus noir

No textbook is a one month ban or a permanent ban, not an indefinite ban. Textbook is pursuing reports of abuse and issuing punishments based on the reports and based on the textbook criteria.

Making the ban period arbitrary, such as six months for one person, indefinite for another, permanent for a third, one month for a fourth, and no punishment for a fifth is not textbook.

[owenshooter]

soooo, you wouldn't qualify not taking a turn for multiple years in an effort to get to 1 point, as a gross abuse? isn't that kind of text book?-Jésus noir

No textbook is a one month ban or a permanent ban, not an indefinite ban. Textbook is pursuing reports of abuse and issuing punishments based on the reports and based on the textbook criteria.

Making the ban period arbitrary, such as six months for one person, indefinite for another, permanent for a third, one month for a fourth, and no punishment for a fifth is not textbook.

ok, sooo, textbook is something already set with a precedent... sooooo, isn't this kind of unprecedented and thus, a gross abuse? i understand where you are going with this, i am just trying to find a way to get on the "FREE AoG" bandwagon... i just don't see you doing a great job convincing anyone of your angle. and as most people know, i have had multiple dirt nap bans from CC that they just assumed i would never come back from... so, if there is one person that is anti-ban, it is me... so, i am not trying to be difficult or obtuse (as many mods were with me in the past, concerning bans), i am just truly trying to understand how something that is beyond the scope of anything reported prior, can not be considered a gross abuse. this went on for years, not for a 12-16hr span of games that were caught.. convince me and i'm sure you will convince many others... i really want to be on your side... i really like AoG, i just am not seeing how this is not a gross abuse...-Jn

[_sabotage_]

I don't want to have to start quoting Sun Tzu, I'd prefer paraphrasing:

If the rules are unfair and carried out unevenly, it will create chaos in the ranks.

From a business perspective:

Resource use should be minimized if possible when doing so creates greater output.

The only result which can come from making arbitrary decisions is unfair policies wasting lots of time.

I'm not questioning KA's ability to make a reasonable decision, I'm questioning the need for him to, and the inherent subjectiveness in doing so.

If the rule is clearly stated:

A one month ban for the first offense and,
A permanent ban for the second offence.

Then the gray area is minimized to does the players conduct constitute point dumping?
If yes, a month. If no, then nothing.

If repeated, permanent. KA's decision will still be slightly subjective (in AoGs case, I think very few people could possibly disagree with his assessment of point dumping).

On the other hand, since the punishment was subjective and not according to the guidelines, people can question KA's decision to expand beyond the scope of the C&A report, and the reason for a subjective punishment.

It leaves others not knowing what the actual punishment is for point dumping and destroys the entire purpose of a punishment: to create order.

[thegreekdog]

Nice creationist argument. "The book is written in this linguistically ambiguous way therefore the only interpretation is my interpretation".

What? Strawman much?

It's not written ambiguously. It's pretty clear that two elements are needed for a rule violation. (1) Intent to cause chaos and (2) one of three acts (one of which is reducing one's score). This is a pretty clear case of statutory construction.

Wrong interpretation is wrong.

To make it unambiguous it would need a colon after intent to cause chaos by. Since that colon is not there, and the colon is instead in the guise of tgd, it's a pure creationist argument.

What are you talking about?

what about those of you that knew what he was doing, joined his games and took the points for free...

No one knew he was doing it and no one took his points that knew he was doing it. In every single other point dumping case I've seen, the point dumper has notified his friends so his friends could win free points.

notyou2, can you really tell me that AoG wasn't throwing games or intentionally deadbeating? Wasn't he "manually 'resetting' points to a lower score"?

He was doing all those things. Why is that a rule violation? How does that hurt the integrity of the scoreboard when those same players are playing new users and inexperienced users and whomever the f*ck and getting their integrity-violating points that way? Like I said, if this was a situation where AoG was losing points to the benefit of particular users (e.g. his friends), then he is intentionally causing chaos. He wasn't doing that.

[lancehoch]

thegreekdog, I don't think we are ever going to see eye to eye on this. I guess we all just have to accept however CC decides to deal with it and go on from there.

[Quirk]

[thegreekdog]

thegreekdog, I don't think we are ever going to see eye to eye on this. I guess we all just have to accept however CC decides to deal with it and go on from there.

Yep. The question is whether people will be reported for pointdumping when they were really just deadbeating. I suppose since most users are not of the same profile as AoG, this kind of thing won't happen.

[thegreekdog]

I'm just going to put this here because I think it is both interesting and relevant:

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=210478&start=25