Conquer Club

i would like to start a debate on clickables.

i think clickables give an unfair advantage vs non clickables especially in freestyle game, but even in normal games with speed of go being important on large maps. it is a mod/enhancment of the game which if you play against you will have no chance without it. in any other online game if you use a mod then you will most probably be banned.

i have spoken to many people about this and a lot agree with me that it is unfair, but many who use it just say dont play freestyle. my answer y shouldnt i when i have paid to do so. does that mean i have to cheat aswell because i wont use them on principle. people have been using this now for a long time and i have no problem with that but i just dont want to waste my time playing with them, they have been beating people many of which dont even know what it is for a long time, this i think needs addressing.

firstly is it fair for users to have it against people who dont?
can the clickies users be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?
can it be made a permanent part of game for all to use, then i think fair?
can it be removed all together?

let me know what u think good or bad....thx for reading.

wreckead wrote:i would like to start a debate on clickables.

i think clickables give an unfair advantage vs non clickables especially in freestyle game, but even in normal games with speed of go being important on large maps. it is a mod/enhancment of the game which if you play against you will have no chance without it. in any other online game if you use a mod then you will most probably be banned.
i have spoken to many people about this and a lot agree with me that it is unfair, but many who use it just say dont play freestyle. my answer y shouldnt i when i have paid to do so. does that mean i have to cheat aswell because i wont use them on principle. people have been using this now for a long time and i have no problem with that but i just dont want to waste my time playing with them, they have been beating people many of which dont even know what it is for a long time, this i think needs addressing.
firstly is it fair for users to have it against people who dont?
can the clickies users be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?
can it be made a permanent part of game for all to use, then i think fair?
can it be removed all together?
let me know what u think good or bad....thx for reading.

If you don't want to get clickies (I hate them, personally), then don't play freestyle. It's quite honestly as simple as that. Because if you play freestyle without them, you're really dumb.

Woodruff wrote:

wreckead wrote:i would like to start a debate on clickables.

i think clickables give an unfair advantage vs non clickables especially in freestyle game, but even in normal games with speed of go being important on large maps. it is a mod/enhancment of the game which if you play against you will have no chance without it. in any other online game if you use a mod then you will most probably be banned.
i have spoken to many people about this and a lot agree with me that it is unfair, but many who use it just say dont play freestyle. my answer y shouldnt i when i have paid to do so. does that mean i have to cheat aswell because i wont use them on principle. people have been using this now for a long time and i have no problem with that but i just dont want to waste my time playing with them, they have been beating people many of which dont even know what it is for a long time, this i think needs addressing.
firstly is it fair for users to have it against people who dont?
can the clickies users be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?
can it be made a permanent part of game for all to use, then i think fair?
can it be removed all together?
let me know what u think good or bad....thx for reading.

If you don't want to get clickies (I hate them, personally), then don't play freestyle. It's quite honestly as simple as that. Because if you play freestyle without them, you're really dumb.

you said what others say but why should the fact people wish to have an unfair advantage stop me playing a game i want to enjoy. i have paid just as much as them for this site to enable me to play what i want. but the point im really trying to make is what about all the poor players who dont know what clicks is, they just play and lose. the clickies players get ranked up for fun.

First thing's first, CM is not a cheat and those using it is not breaking any rules.

wreckead wrote:firstly is it fair for users to have it against people who dont?

Yes I do, it is an add-on that is approved by CC and it's available to most users (anyone that can choose his/her browser can use it). Anyone not using it is in effect choosing not to, but I do think that all add-ons could be better promoted by CC.

wreckead wrote:can the clickies users be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?

Most likely very hard (if possible at all) to do and IMO not wanted either.

wreckead wrote:can it be removed all together?

Possibly but I'm not sure how much that can be done to stop end user scripts.

wreckead wrote:can it be made a permanent part of game for all to use, then i think fair?

Has been suggested (IMO a great suggestion too), unfortunately the presence of the script seems to mean that the powers that be considers it a low priority (just as with other features that scripts currently do).

wreckead wrote:in any other online game if you use a mod then you will most probably be banned.

Not true. Other games allow (and promote) end user scripts/mods too.

thx for that input Thezzaruz

but i would like to pick u up on your first point, how can you say it is fair to use against someone who has never heard of it, or dosnt wish to use on principle. you must admit it gives a player a distinct advantage in freestyle especially.

and as for online games i am an admin on many servers on many games and would ban any1 who uses scripts which give an advantage. the same goes for any other admin.

obviously clickies is good to use and makes game easier, i have tried it so im not just being ignorant but found it to be to easy. my point is that why should the few ruin it for the many?

maybe they can have clickable games section so people can play there if they wish, but also avoid if they wish.

I have clickies, but not for freestyle. I find them more intuitive and convenient than the drop down menus; they don't give me an advantage, but they do make the game more fun.

If you decline the offer for a free gun, why complain that your opponent is using one in a fight?

Seriously, firefox is free, greaseymokey is free, clickies are free, and if you can run internet explorer, you can run firefox. Which means that anyone who does not use them does not do so by choice.

You consider it a cheat? Why? It is free, available to everyone, approved by the site, made by a mod on the site, is already marked as a future edition of the site etc. If your problem with clickies is that others don;t know about it, why not put the link to the download as your sig, and make your first post in any game as informative to the script.

Now, let me ask you a question. Why do you take spoils at the end of your turn? Seriously? Why do you do it?

i think spoils give an unfair advantage vs people who don't have spoils especially in escalating games, but even in flat rate games being important on small maps. it is a programmed in enhancement to your deploy which if you play against you will have no chance without it. in any other online game if you use something that is part of the game and made by the owner then you will most probably not be banned.

i have spoken to many people about this and a lot agree with me that it is unfair, but many who use it just say dont play spoils games. my answer y shouldnt i when i have paid to do so. does that mean i have to cheat aswell because i wont use them on principle. people have been using this now for a long time and i have no problem with that but i just dont want to waste my time cashing sets, they have been beating people many of which dont even know that spoils exist, this i think needs addressing.

firstly is it fair for users to have them against people who dont?
can the users who take cards be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?
can it be made so everyone gets spoils even if they don't attack, then i think fair?
can spoils be removed all together?

What is the difference?
- Now, downloading clickies takes one click on this link: http://userscripts.org/scripts/source/32305.user.js - Ending your turn takes one click on "End Turn"
- Spoils are a bit of code made by the site owner. Clickies are a bit of code made by someone the site owner hired.
- Only people who have read the instructions know you get spoils only if you made an attack and ended your turn. Only the people who have visited the plug ins forum know that you can only click on the map by downloading a link

So, why do you take spoils? Isn't it unfair to all those people who don't take them?

The Neon Peon wrote:If you decline the offer for a free gun, why complain that your opponent is using one in a fight?

Seriously, firefox is free, greaseymokey is free, clickies are free, and if you can run internet explorer, you can run firefox. Which means that anyone who does not use them does not do so by choice.

You consider it a cheat? Why? It is free, available to everyone, approved by the site, made by a mod on the site, is already marked as a future edition of the site etc. If your problem with clickies is that others don;t know about it, why not put the link to the download as your sig, and make your first post in any game as informative to the script.

Now, let me ask you a question. Why do you take spoils at the end of your turn? Seriously? Why do you do it?

i think spoils give an unfair advantage vs people who don't have spoils especially in escalating games, but even in flat rate games being important on small maps. it is a programmed in enhancement to your deploy which if you play against you will have no chance without it. in any other online game if you use something that is part of the game and made by the owner then you will most probably not be banned.

i have spoken to many people about this and a lot agree with me that it is unfair, but many who use it just say dont play spoils games. my answer y shouldnt i when i have paid to do so. does that mean i have to cheat aswell because i wont use them on principle. people have been using this now for a long time and i have no problem with that but i just dont want to waste my time cashing sets, they have been beating people many of which dont even know that spoils exist, this i think needs addressing.

firstly is it fair for users to have them against people who dont?
can the users who take cards be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?
can it be made so everyone gets spoils even if they don't attack, then i think fair?
can spoils be removed all together?

What is the difference?
- Now, downloading clickies takes one click on this link: http://userscripts.org/scripts/source/32305.user.js - Ending your turn takes one click on "End Turn"
- Spoils are a bit of code made by the site owner. Clickies are a bit of code made by someone the site owner hired.
- Only people who have read the instructions know you get spoils only if you made an attack and ended your turn. Only the people who have visited the plug ins forum know that you can only click on the map by downloading a link

So, why do you take spoils? Isn't it unfair to all those people who don't take them?

NON EDUCATIONAL. so speaks a cheat.

wreckead wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

wreckead wrote:i would like to start a debate on clickables.

i think clickables give an unfair advantage vs non clickables especially in freestyle game, but even in normal games with speed of go being important on large maps. it is a mod/enhancment of the game which if you play against you will have no chance without it. in any other online game if you use a mod then you will most probably be banned.
i have spoken to many people about this and a lot agree with me that it is unfair, but many who use it just say dont play freestyle. my answer y shouldnt i when i have paid to do so. does that mean i have to cheat aswell because i wont use them on principle. people have been using this now for a long time and i have no problem with that but i just dont want to waste my time playing with them, they have been beating people many of which dont even know what it is for a long time, this i think needs addressing.
firstly is it fair for users to have it against people who dont?
can the clickies users be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?
can it be made a permanent part of game for all to use, then i think fair?
can it be removed all together?
let me know what u think good or bad....thx for reading.

If you don't want to get clickies (I hate them, personally), then don't play freestyle. It's quite honestly as simple as that. Because if you play freestyle without them, you're really dumb.

you said what others say but why should the fact people wish to have an unfair advantage stop me playing a game i want to enjoy.

That applies to any competition. You ask (altered just a tad): "Why should the fact that the other team uses tall people on their basketball team stop me from playing a game I want to enjoy"? The fact is...not using clickable maps doesn't stop you from playing. It only stops you from winning at it, just as with the basketball example. Their using tall people is no more against the rules than someone using clickable maps is. It's a tool that is available and if you CHOOSE not to use them, then that is your CHOICE.

Thezzaruz wrote:

wreckead wrote:can it be made a permanent part of game for all to use, then i think fair?

Has been suggested (IMO a great suggestion too), unfortunately the presence of the script seems to mean that the powers that be considers it a low priority (just as with other features that scripts currently do).

I hope this never happens...clickable maps suck, and I don't want to be forced to use them. I would actually leave the site if that were implemented.

wreckead wrote:but i would like to pick u up on your first point, how can you say it is fair to use against someone who has never heard of it, or dosnt wish to use on principle.

If someone don't know about it then that is an information problem but the basic fact is that CM is freely and openly available. If someone choose not to use it then it's just their own darn fault when/if they loose. Either way there is nothing unfair about using CM.

wreckead wrote:you must admit it gives a player a distinct advantage in freestyle especially.

Don't know since I haven't used CM nor play much freestyle games but I certainly guess that playing speed freestyle without CM is close to begging to be robbed.

wreckead wrote:and as for online games i am an admin on many servers on many games and would ban any1 who uses scripts which give an advantage. the same goes for any other admin.

Flawed logic and generalizations doesn't make for valid arguments I'm afraid. The CM script is allowed (and encouraged) on CC so of course no one will be banned for using it.

Woodruff wrote:I hope this never happens...clickable maps suck, and I don't want to be forced to use them. I would actually leave the site if that were implemented.

I would hope that the drop downs would still be there.

wreckead wrote:

The Neon Peon wrote:If you decline the offer for a free gun, why complain that your opponent is using one in a fight?

Seriously, firefox is free, greaseymokey is free, clickies are free, and if you can run internet explorer, you can run firefox. Which means that anyone who does not use them does not do so by choice.

You consider it a cheat? Why? It is free, available to everyone, approved by the site, made by a mod on the site, is already marked as a future edition of the site etc. If your problem with clickies is that others don;t know about it, why not put the link to the download as your sig, and make your first post in any game as informative to the script.

Now, let me ask you a question. Why do you take spoils at the end of your turn? Seriously? Why do you do it?

i think spoils give an unfair advantage vs people who don't have spoils especially in escalating games, but even in flat rate games being important on small maps. it is a programmed in enhancement to your deploy which if you play against you will have no chance without it. in any other online game if you use something that is part of the game and made by the owner then you will most probably not be banned.

i have spoken to many people about this and a lot agree with me that it is unfair, but many who use it just say dont play spoils games. my answer y shouldnt i when i have paid to do so. does that mean i have to cheat aswell because i wont use them on principle. people have been using this now for a long time and i have no problem with that but i just dont want to waste my time cashing sets, they have been beating people many of which dont even know that spoils exist, this i think needs addressing.

firstly is it fair for users to have them against people who dont?
can the users who take cards be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?
can it be made so everyone gets spoils even if they don't attack, then i think fair?
can spoils be removed all together?

What is the difference?
- Now, downloading clickies takes one click on this link: http://userscripts.org/scripts/source/32305.user.js - Ending your turn takes one click on "End Turn"
- Spoils are a bit of code made by the site owner. Clickies are a bit of code made by someone the site owner hired.
- Only people who have read the instructions know you get spoils only if you made an attack and ended your turn. Only the people who have visited the plug ins forum know that you can only click on the map by downloading a link

So, why do you take spoils? Isn't it unfair to all those people who don't take them?

NON EDUCATIONAL. so speaks a cheat.

People always have trouble admitting they are wrong. It's okay. We still love you.

Now answer my spoils question.

wreckead wrote:i would like to start a debate on clickables.

i think clickables give an unfair advantage vs non clickables especially in freestyle game, but even in normal games with speed of go being important on large maps. it is a mod/enhancment of the game which if you play against you will have no chance without it. in any other online game if you use a mod then you will most probably be banned.

i have spoken to many people about this and a lot agree with me that it is unfair, but many who use it just say dont play freestyle. my answer y shouldnt i when i have paid to do so. does that mean i have to cheat aswell because i wont use them on principle. people have been using this now for a long time and i have no problem with that but i just dont want to waste my time playing with them, they have been beating people many of which dont even know what it is for a long time, this i think needs addressing.

firstly is it fair for users to have it against people who dont?
can the clickies users be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?
can it be made a permanent part of game for all to use, then i think fair?
can it be removed all together?

let me know what u think good or bad....thx for reading.

I'm curious. What kind of internet connection do you use?

20 mb why?

wreckead wrote:20 mb why?

Because it apparently caused you to overlook the basketball analogy.

Woodruff wrote:

wreckead wrote:20 mb why?

Because it apparently caused you to overlook the basketball analogy.

lol i dont think he overlooked it, he just flat out ignored it. after all if he were to acknowledge the argument, then he would just be acknowledging that clickies are fair.

wreckead wrote:20 mb why?

Doesn't that give you a huge advantage over someone like me who has a 128k???? Is that fair? Does that mean that you are cheating? You tell me.

well i guess that part of speed games, have to be fast

i didnt miss basketball thing but what does tall player have to do with it i mean come on.

clickies are not an integral part of this game if they were i would have no problem. in fact i dont have a problem with people using them i just dont see the point of playing them, so it would be nice if they were marked as clicky players so i and many others can avoid. why should you not want to be identified as a clickie user if you dont have an advantage hmmm i wonder.

trinicardinal wrote:

wreckead wrote:20 mb why?

Doesn't that give you a huge advantage over someone like me who has a 128k???? Is that fair? Does that mean that you are cheating? You tell me.

another stupid comment.
NO!

and comon if u have that join the 20th century lol.

wreckead wrote:

trinicardinal wrote:

wreckead wrote:20 mb why?

Doesn't that give you a huge advantage over someone like me who has a 128k???? Is that fair? Does that mean that you are cheating? You tell me.

another stupid comment.
NO!

and comon if u have that join the 20th century lol.

I have a friend who has that type of connection. The only way he can play freestyle and take more than one territory every 15 seconds is to use clickies. Go on...

Now answer the basketball analogy and the spoils question. Seriously? How is taking spoils different from having clickies. I see absolutely no difference.

Edit: you are about to say that not taking spoils is stupid or in some other way avoid answering that question and the comment about basketball. This only proves that there is no argument against it that you can come up with and both arguments must therefore be taken as true seeing as no contradiction is given.

wreckead wrote:i didnt miss basketball thing but what does tall player have to do with it i mean come on.

It's a direct analogy clearly showing the flaw in your logic, that's what it has to do with it.

wreckead wrote:clickies are not an integral part of this game if they were i would have no problem.

What's the difference if they are coded directly into the site or if they are simply supported by the site? Why would that make any difference at all?

wreckead wrote:why should you not want to be identified as a clickie user if you dont have an advantage hmmm i wonder.

Because anyone playing a freestyle game should be EXPECTING to play against clickies. It's an unnecessary addition.

wreckead wrote:

trinicardinal wrote:

wreckead wrote:20 mb why?

Doesn't that give you a huge advantage over someone like me who has a 128k???? Is that fair? Does that mean that you are cheating? You tell me.

another stupid comment.
NO!
and comon if u have that join the 20th century lol.

You seem to be highly hypocritical. Or sublimely ironic. I'm not sure which.

Let's take this in pieces

wreckead wrote:

trinicardinal wrote:

wreckead wrote:20 mb why?

Doesn't that give you a huge advantage over someone like me who has a 128k???? Is that fair? Does that mean that you are cheating? You tell me.

another stupid comment.

How is that a stupid comment?

wreckead wrote:NO!

Your only answer to my questions is listed above... so we have

a) Doesn't that give you a huge advantage over someone like me who has a 128k? - NO!
b) Is that fair? - NO!
c) Does that mean that you are cheating? - NO!

does this strike anyone else as being confused...

wreckead wrote:
and comon if u have that join the 20th century lol.

Ok so maybe I'm a bit backward.... but I can't afford a faster connection - I'm not fortunate enough to live in a country where these things are dirt cheap. However, since I know it's a disadvantage where speed counts I don't play freestyle games. It's not rocket science!

sigh.... another person who misses the whole point of things!!!

and finally:

according to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary

to cheat means - to violate rules dishonestly

well clickies are allowed in the rules so none are violated, so where's the cheating?

Woodruff wrote:

wreckead wrote:i would like to start a debate on clickables.

i think clickables give an unfair advantage vs non clickables especially in freestyle game, but even in normal games with speed of go being important on large maps. it is a mod/enhancment of the game which if you play against you will have no chance without it. in any other online game if you use a mod then you will most probably be banned.
i have spoken to many people about this and a lot agree with me that it is unfair, but many who use it just say dont play freestyle. my answer y shouldnt i when i have paid to do so. does that mean i have to cheat aswell because i wont use them on principle. people have been using this now for a long time and i have no problem with that but i just dont want to waste my time playing with them, they have been beating people many of which dont even know what it is for a long time, this i think needs addressing.
firstly is it fair for users to have it against people who dont?
can the clickies users be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?
can it be made a permanent part of game for all to use, then i think fair?
can it be removed all together?
let me know what u think good or bad....thx for reading.

If you don't want to get clickies (I hate them, personally), then don't play freestyle. It's quite honestly as simple as that. Because if you play freestyle without them, you're really dumb.

Ok woody heres an analogy for you. How fair would it be for a teacher to give a test to the class when the teacher only gives 1/2 of the class info on what to study?

you said,"Because if you play freestyle without them, you're really dumb. what about all the new players who havent been told their 1st day of school here about clickable maps, or Bob, or any of the other plug ins?

I have met alot of players with more than a year of time here who never visited the forums, and who had no idea that these options were available.

Fine, you dont want to use C.M's but shouldnt everyone know that they exist? Perhaps C.C. should put together a quick little tutorial for all new members showing whats available and how to use different features.

That really was a great comment you made,

azezzo wrote:Ok woody heres an analogy for you. How fair would it be for a teacher to give a test to the class when the teacher only gives 1/2 of the class info on what to study?

you said,"Because if you play freestyle without them, you're really dumb. what about all the new players who havent been told their 1st day of school here about clickable maps, or Bob, or any of the other plug ins?

I have met alot of players with more than a year of time here who never visited the forums, and who had no idea that these options were available.

Fine, you dont want to use C.M's but shouldnt everyone know that they exist? Perhaps C.C. should put together a quick little tutorial for all new members showing whats available and how to use different features.

That really was a great comment you made,

Let me continue that analogy. It is not like half of the users on CC get a PM telling them about CMs and half do not, so your analogy is inaccurate. What happens is this.

The teacher has a bookshelf on the side of the room, and you can browse through it at any time and find the information you need to know. Is that a good thing? Of course not, it is better to be told about clickies straight out.

But let's take a game. Someone new comes into a freestyle speed and sees that other people are beginning same second the round ends, taking one territory a second and all that fun stuff. Weren't you taught to ask questions? I honestly don't think it should take more than a 1v1 against a clicky user to figure out that they have something you don't.

And if you don't notice that something is not right after 10 games of people moving faster than you can reload the page, I don't think you're paying attention in class anyways, so when you get a bad grade on the test, you should have been paying attention and asking questions.

azezzo wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

wreckead wrote:i would like to start a debate on clickables.

i think clickables give an unfair advantage vs non clickables especially in freestyle game, but even in normal games with speed of go being important on large maps. it is a mod/enhancment of the game which if you play against you will have no chance without it. in any other online game if you use a mod then you will most probably be banned.
i have spoken to many people about this and a lot agree with me that it is unfair, but many who use it just say dont play freestyle. my answer y shouldnt i when i have paid to do so. does that mean i have to cheat aswell because i wont use them on principle. people have been using this now for a long time and i have no problem with that but i just dont want to waste my time playing with them, they have been beating people many of which dont even know what it is for a long time, this i think needs addressing.
firstly is it fair for users to have it against people who dont?
can the clickies users be identified in their profile maybe so they can be avoided?
can it be made a permanent part of game for all to use, then i think fair?
can it be removed all together?
let me know what u think good or bad....thx for reading.

If you don't want to get clickies (I hate them, personally), then don't play freestyle. It's quite honestly as simple as that. Because if you play freestyle without them, you're really dumb.

Ok woody heres an analogy for you. How fair would it be for a teacher to give a test to the class when the teacher only gives 1/2 of the class info on what to study?

you said,"Because if you play freestyle without them, you're really dumb. what about all the new players who havent been told their 1st day of school here about clickable maps, or Bob, or any of the other plug ins?

I have met alot of players with more than a year of time here who never visited the forums, and who had no idea that these options were available.

Fine, you dont want to use C.M's but shouldnt everyone know that they exist? Perhaps C.C. should put together a quick little tutorial for all new members showing whats available and how to use different features.

That really was a great comment you made,

Your analogy is a poor one, in my opinion. A better analogy would be a teacher giving a test where only half of the class bothers to ask questions and look up the information that's applicable to the test. The information on clickies is readily available...new question mark users have been found to have them quite often, in fact. This individual is clearly aware of clickies and specifically states he "won't use them on principle"...I'm sorry if I'm not particularly sympathetic to those students who didn't bother to look up the information on the test.