Conquer Club

Concise description:
For BIG changes only do either of the following or a combination:

1. A poll placed directly in "My Games", rather than "buried" in the forum

2. Select a representative group of people to review and work on modifying changes.

Specifics:

First, this would only apply to CHANGES that could negatively affect the community. In general, I don't think people really care how many additions you make. But, change what exists or eliminate something and people will care!

Specifically:
1. When Idea is "set", or narrowed down to a few choices, put in place a poll linked directly from the "my games" page, as was done with the Classic Risk (albiet after the change was made). Or, if the change is specific to only one map, you could perhaps place the link as a "pop up" when someone goes to play that map. Run the poll for at least 2 weeks, or until a "good" percentage of players have responded. (the percentage,too might vary depending on the issue. For small changes a few might be OK, but for really big changes, you probably want something close to an active, current game playing, majority)

2. Create focus groups by some representative selection process. I would prefer some kind of stratified random ... (that is, break folks into pertinent groups and then sample within each group because. When you can actually define, to some extent what makes people's opinions differ (age, etc.) and sample proportional to the whole, it improves the data significantly.

One group, for example, might be mods/creators. Another might be "problem children" (???? -- or maybe you just want to skip them) who would be given very explicite and limited "rules" to follow if their participation is to be accepted. Another group might be "mature" or, ranks Or, perhaps people who concentrate on one style of play .... etc. The actual groupings might change depending on teh issue. IF the change is to a particular map, for example you would want to concentrate on those who play that map. You might want 1-2 who don't, maybe to find out if the changes might encourage more people to play or just to see how easy the change will be for the "unfamiliar" to figure out. Also, though I said "representative", that does not mean the group has to match the overall community. It might very well be appropriate to have more mod/creator involvement because they know more about some things. BUT, you have to have enough other people that you are getting an opinion reasonably like the community.

These selected people will be notified by PM. Naturally, a few will refuse, so you will have to pick more people than you think you will need. (though you don't have to notify the "extras" initially)

Because these will not necessarily be straight volunteers, maybe "sweeten" the chance by offering a special medal/ribbon or a membership extension -- maybe 2 months for smaller, shorter involvement groups, a year for anything requiring a significant amount of time. This aspect would NOT necessarily be advertised if "open recruiting" is used, because that would bias who will decide to "show up", but will definitely be mentioned in any invitation issued.


3. a combination. In some cases, you might want to issue a quick poll FIRST. For example, just to see if a change is wanted. (e.g. the Classic Risk color change)
In those cases, you might actually pick at least some of the folks from those who respond in the thread, in addition to a smattering of folks who don't.

In other cases, you will want a group to pretty well "shake out" the ideas before a poll, then present the options to the community. It might be just 2 options, or you might start with several and then narrow it down. Whenever a change is not absolutely required, "keep it as is" should always be an option.

In some cases, where there is no clear consensus or if the issue is just very complicated, you might want to go back to another focus group and do another poll after the first round.

ETC. ... modifications/tweaks as needed to match situations.

As I already said, there might be very good reasons to specifically include mods and/or creators, but that is a specific, intentional exception ... To find out how a change will "go over", you need a diverse group that represents the whole as much as possible.

The first part, the "shaking out" and formulating ideas, is where you often do need real expertise, though I would suggest you can avoid a lot of problems later if you include at least a smattering of representative community members. Why? because when you are really busy making maps, moderating issues and so forth, you get a very different perspective than the average community member. BOTH types of input need to come together.

BUT, then when it comes to the "will this idea fly with the community" part .. THEN you want to get as many people, at least as many of the people concerned, as possible.


This will improve the following aspects of the site:

Right now, most of the polls, focus groups, etc. have been stratight volunteers from folks who visit the forums. This is just not representative of the site as a whole. When you ask for focus group volunteers, for example, you are far more likely to get folks who don't like the current [whatever it is]. People who are basically happy with things "as is" are much more likely to say "why bother?". The exceptions are a few like myself who just like to talk/debate/think up stuff AND those I will call "highly invested" in the site itself (but not necessarily game playing, such as the creators and mods). None is represenative.

This "mismatch" between those who think up and decide upon changes and the group as a whole are why changes are so often met with criticism and even anger. Even going through this process, you will still get some people who will complain. That's life. BUT, this way you will go a long way to make sure that those who do complain are, well ... the complainers and that they don't really represent the community as a whole.

The real problem is not that you might get tons of complaints in the forums. The real problem is that if you keep making changes that people don't like, folks will just stop coming. However, for a lot of reasons ... the length of games, the fact that a subscription is a year... the sheer number of changes (making picking out cause and effect of one difficult), the sheer number of new people coming, I don't think you can really and truly see any direct results. But, even if you have a hard time seeing that this change or that caused people to leave, the result is still there.

Besides, when you put so much effort into any change (as you folks obviously do), it is a shame to then subject yourselfs to preventable ridicule and complaints. (again, not all complaints can be prevented, but this will stop a lot of them ... or at the very least tone them down sonsiderably).

Thank you for your consideration. I know this was a long post, but I think the issue is important

I think that is a great idea.

Summary maybe? I'm not reading all that...

Polls are on the my games page aswell

FabledIntegral wrote:I'm not reading all that...

If you don't have time to read it, then you don't have time to discuss it. Similarily, if you don't care enough to read, then you don't care enough to commmebt, Please don't spam up this marvelous thread with requests for somebody else to do a job that you can't be bothered to.


Might I say that I believe that the proposed ideas in the original post are fantastic, and are precisely the sort of thing which I think would improve community relations on this site.

FabledIntegral wrote:Summary maybe? I'm not reading all that...

And you are a perfect representative of people who bitch about problems and then don't learn anything about how to fix them.

Dancing Mustard wrote:

FabledIntegral wrote:I'm not reading all that...

If you don't have time to read it, then you don't have time to discuss it. Similarily, if you don't care enough to read, then you don't care enough to commmebt, Please don't spam up this marvelous thread with requests for somebody else to do a job that you can't be bothered to.


Might I say that I believe that the proposed ideas in the original post are fantastic, and are precisely the sort of thing which I think would improve community relations on this site.

Don't feed me any of that bullshit - there's a difference considering posts of suggestions are spammed up all the time. Don't even try to say it's spam when I'm asking for a shorter summary of something - which is very reasonable in the forums. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't do, especially if it's not spam, it's a request. What idiocy on your part.

It would be a shame to muddy this suggestion with the attitudes here. Everyone cool off and stop trying to provoke each other. Comment on the SUGGESTION, not on the people posting in the thread.

FabledIntegral wrote:Don't feed me any of that bullshit - there's a difference considering posts of suggestions are spammed up all the time. Don't even try to say it's spam when I'm asking for a shorter summary of something - which is very reasonable in the forums. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't do, especially if it's not spam, it's a request. What idiocy on your part.

Sorry, you appear to have mistaken this place for FW, please redirect yourself there if you feel the need to troll and flame further.

Anyway, I'm not going to feed a troll here any more, but here are my responses to your 'points':

1. Basically, gumming up a thread with requests for a summary of a post you're too lazy to read is just spam. If you want to contribute sensibly and in an informed fashion, then just read the post. Don't waste everybody elses' time by demanding spoonfeeding.

2. Requests can be spam. When requests are inane and unhelpful, then they are spam. If I were to request 'Moar Mudkipz' here, then it would be spam. Likewise, asking people to repeat themselves because you can't be bothered to spend time reading their (exceedingly well-written) posts is spam.

3. So no. You weren't being reasonable. You were not being fed bullshit. You were not responding to idiocy. You were spamming this thread. Now cease trolling this thread, and take it to FW if you wish to insist on flaming further. This is a brilliant thread, and it would be a shame to see it stifled by an angry troll before it even got off the ground.


EDIT: Fastposted by Wicked. Thank you for your support in this matter Miss Mod.

I'd be willing to bet that if CC starts sending out requests to all of the casual players out there for participation in feedback focus groups you are going to start pissing people off. The people who come into the forums are the ones who are really bitching and moaning about the changes, the ones who aren't normally in the forums aren't doing much complaining now are they? Perhaps just a few here and there.

I know for a fact there are a lot of people who join this site who just want to play the game, they don't want to be randomly asked to give their time to come work in a focus group. Leave them be, and find people from the forums (who despite what everyone seems to think are actually a perfectly acceptable cross-section of the players here) and have them work to make the things work out properly.

With all of that said, I still think you are making it too complicated. Lack asked for official feedback for at least a week (and yes, I know you think that isn't "enough", so don't bother going there), and he got responses ranging all over the place, which contrary to what all of YOU think, I'm sure he did take into account before making his final decision. As a matter of fact, I can think of a couple particular points that were heated discussed behind the scenes before he finally made the update.

And, finally, don't forget, this is a business, and while yes, pleasing the customer is always important, if the customer is bitching and moaning so much about the previous feedback system that it was eating up all the time from the staff (which it was) and hindering his ability to make things move forward, he has every right to make a change, and while I'm sure some of you are going to continue to complain and moan for the next 4 weeks, in 6 months most people aren't going to care anymore and the system will be tweaked a little bit and work just fine.

If you ask me, perhaps you should wait a month or two to see what happens with it before jumping to all sorts of conclusion and suggesting all sorts of ways to change it in every forum on the damn site for pete's sake.

Dancing Mustard wrote:

FabledIntegral wrote:I'm not reading all that...

If you don't have time to read it, then you don't have time to discuss it. Similarily, if you don't care enough to read, then you don't care enough to commmebt, Please don't spam up this marvelous thread with requests for somebody else to do a job that you can't be bothered to.


Might I say that I believe that the proposed ideas in the original post are fantastic, and are precisely the sort of thing which I think would improve community relations on this site.

He didn't see he didn't have time just implied that he didn't want to...and neither do I.

But I read that it is suggested for a poll for big changes on the My Games page and I agree with that.

I had no idea the stupid feedback changes were coming. A link should have been placed on the front page or at least a mass pm stating that they were thinking of making such a huge change.

Dancing Mustard wrote:

FabledIntegral wrote:Don't feed me any of that bullshit - there's a difference considering posts of suggestions are spammed up all the time. Don't even try to say it's spam when I'm asking for a shorter summary of something - which is very reasonable in the forums. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't do, especially if it's not spam, it's a request. What idiocy on your part.

Sorry, you appear to have mistaken this place for FW, please redirect yourself there if you feel the need to troll and flame further.

Anyway, I'm not going to feed a troll here any more, but here are my responses to your 'points':

1. Basically, gumming up a thread with requests for a summary of a post you're too lazy to read is just spam. If you want to contribute sensibly and in an informed fashion, then just read the post. Don't waste everybody elses' time by demanding spoonfeeding.

2. Requests can be spam. When requests are inane and unhelpful, then they are spam. If I were to request 'Moar Mudkipz' here, then it would be spam. Likewise, asking people to repeat themselves because you can't be bothered to spend time reading their (exceedingly well-written) posts is spam.

3. So no. You weren't being reasonable. You were not being fed bullshit. You were not responding to idiocy. You were spamming this thread. Now cease trolling this thread, and take it to FW if you wish to insist on flaming further. This is a brilliant thread, and it would be a shame to see it stifled by an angry troll before it even got off the ground.


EDIT: Fastposted by Wicked. Thank you for your support in this matter Miss Mod.

As if, screw off dude. You're the one with the condescending demeanor, which is just as attributable to trolling. Concerning that most people, on average, are not willing to read excessively long posts, a summary is not impractical and simply because YOU feel you have the time does not detract from the point a summary is still beneficial to a large proportion of readers.

Secondly, you're responses are just as counterproductive. Whether you say I'm flaming or whatever, you're trolling the same, so stfu and mind your own business or come up with something and take your arrogance elsewhere. You talk as if you are a complete authoritative matter on the subject, "do this, do that." And to that trolling, I once again repeat, screw off.

Third, wicked used the plural, whether or not he did support you in spirit doesn't detract from teh point you show even further arrogance on the matter.

Lastly, I still haven't read this topic, as most people probably skip over. Why is that? Because there are tons of suggestions over these forums. I'm not going to sit down and read what could be a 3 page essay on conquerclub, yet it does not take away from the fact I'd like to know what's going on. Thus I still request a summary of the page. Not from you of course Dancing, you've found your way on ignore.

I like the general idea of the original post. As I had posted in the original thread, I would have liked a notice above the "My Games" page. This would have given everyone fair warning, as there was already a sticky in GD. As to getting a focus group together, this should be done before the suggestion is really publicized. The focus group is supposed to give a general indication as to whether the idea is worth bringing up.

Optimus Prime wrote:I'd be willing to bet that if CC starts sending out requests to all of the casual players out there for participation in feedback focus groups you are going to start pissing people off. .

No one would HAVE to join and they might be rewarded tangibly if they did.

The people who come into the forums are the ones who are really bitching and moaning about the changes, the ones who aren't normally in the forums aren't doing much complaining now are they? Perhaps just a few here and there

You got it backwards. It is not that the people who got to the forums are bitching ... it is that people are more likely to go to the forum if they have a problem.

Which is why sometimes the ideas shaked out in the forum don't mesh with what the community as a whole thinks

With all of that said, I still think you are making it too complicated. Lack asked for official feedback for at least a week (and yes, I know you think that isn't "enough", so don't bother going there), and he got responses ranging all over the place, which contrary to what all of YOU think, I'm sure he did take into account before making his final decision. As a matter of fact, I can think of a couple particular points that were heated discussed behind the scenes before he finally made the update.

So what is wrong with ensuring that a broader cross-section of the community participate?

A lot of times the discussions start productive and then devolve into "fighting egos". I am saying stop. Once the ideas are collected, let the community as a whole voice their opinions. As a minimum, if the link is on "My Games page" then virtually every active member will be able to see it and know that they at least had the chance to comment.

And, finally, don't forget, this is a business, and while yes, pleasing the customer is always important, if the customer is bitching and moaning so much about the previous feedback system that it was eating up all the time from the staff (which it was) and hindering his ability to make things move forward, he has every right to make a change, and while I'm sure some of you are going to continue to complain and moan for the next 4 weeks, in 6 months most people aren't going to care anymore and the system will be tweaked a little bit and work just fine.

This is not about one single change. It is about guaging, attempting to moderate the community response to changes that, yes, sometimes must be made. Pleasing customers is a benefit to business.

Of coure, the ultimate decision on anything is Lack's. BUT, there is a reason why firms pay marketing companies big bucks. Because it pays (literally) to know how your customers feel.

If you ask me, perhaps you should wait a month or two to see what happens with it before jumping to all sorts of conclusion and suggesting all sorts of ways to change it in every forum on the damn site for pete's sake.

Again, this is not about feedback, its about the way big changes are implemented and a suggestion to make them more palatable to the CC community. I did make another thread with feedback suggestions, but this is not it.

A poll like this can have a drawback in that if the suggestion made is NOT accepted ... that is, if Lack goes against the majority, then folks will be even more upset.

BUT, that can be solved by doing the following:

There are 2 reasons for polls.
A. "get a feel" polls. These are more to narrow down rough ideas. And example might be to ask "Do you want the Classic Risk Map Changed to be more readable?" IF the answer is a 99% "no" ... then I suspect any manager will say "gee, this is not going to be a popular idea, let's just leave things lie". Anyone suggesting otherwise can be referred to this poll. It can, of course be repeated, but only as needed/desired.

If the answer is "yes", THEN it would move to the discussion forum (probably with a posting in the "my games" page, or in this case perhaps in the Risk Map link itself) alerting folks to go look at the debate There discussion would follow on HOW to change .... shadings, actual color changes, etc.

B. Vote on options. Once the more popular ideas are "shaken out", they would be presented as a poll. This could come from Lack talking to mods, a discussion as noted above or however. It might have 2 options or a bunch. In some cases, if there is no clear "winner", a further discussion and more limited poll might follow until there is something like a discussion.

IN ALL CASES, except possibly the initial "brainstorming", the only ideas actually presented should be viable options. (in brainstorming, you allow non-viable options to be presented and then bring folks to understand why it cannot be in the discussion)

ON THE OTHER HAND, there will be times when something just "has" to happen. Lack/the mods want it and "that's it". I would still suggest at least trying to post some kind of poll. In most cases, even making a small tweak choice (should the rating numbers be light blue or green?) can dilute some of the objections. However, when no choice is available, then no poll should be run.


The goal here is not to eliminate ALL complaints. Some folks will ignore the poll and then go "oops". But, keeping the discussion so highly centered on the forums truly limits those who participate in the discussion. AND, it limits the discussion to the "loudest voices", which may or may not represent the most popular voice. I would strongly suggest that the popular choice (in most cases) is what makes the most business sense. As noted, even in cases where the most popular choice is not viable, just allowing input goes a long way toward smoothing people's opinions. That is just plain old customer service.

Remember, many people won't come into the forum. Most will just leave or decline to renew ... etc. THAT is why relying upon just forum opinion is not necessarily the best move.

Ultimately, Optimus was correct about one thing. The decision IS Lack's. This is just a suggestion. He can take it our leave it, as he wishes.

FabledIntegral wrote:Summary maybe? I'm not reading all that...

I didn't read it all either, but I still know what he's suggesting(mostly, equivalent to what I'd have gotten from a summary).
Learn to skim(speed-read).

I don't know that explicitly asking individual people to provide feedback(to changes) will improve anything. Facilitating feedback(before and after changes) is never a bad thing though, although you'd have to get feedback about the best way to do that.

We are committed to receive more and better feedback from the community at large regarding changes, updates, etc. Hopefully soon we'll have a small step towards extensive feedback/awareness up and working. We are dedicated to serving the community...if we weren't, then we'd just close down the forums.


--Andy

antony.trupe wrote:

FabledIntegral wrote:Summary maybe? I'm not reading all that...

I didn't read it all either, but I still know what he's suggesting(mostly, equivalent to what I'd have gotten from a summary).
Learn to skim(speed-read).

I don't know that explicitly asking individual people to provide feedback(to changes) will improve anything. Facilitating feedback(before and after changes) is never a bad thing though, although you'd have to get feedback about the best way to do that.

The SUMMARY:

Ask about BIG changes with a link right on "My Games" page ... either a simple poll or a link to the discussion or both.

The primary reason? Asking in forums hits only a narrow audience that is not representative of the entire community. I believe that is why things can seem to be hashed out in the forums, and then get a huge negative response when implemented.

It could be quite detailed .. with lots of polls/discussions, but that is best left in the forums. This would be a basic "yes/no" or options A/B/C.


(The rest of the above is just more detailed analysis and discussion )

Thank you for taking the time to come up with this idea! I do like the idea of a poll on "My Games". I find the forums to generally be hard to navigate (and I went to law school - and yes I graduated : ) plus I am not that fond of all the nasty comments so I tend to avoid them. Your suggestion would fit well with how I use this site.

AndyDufresne wrote:...just close down the forums...


--Andy

OMG, they're going to close the forums!

antony.trupe wrote:

AndyDufresne wrote:...just close down the forums...


--Andy

OMG, they're going to close the forums!

And sadly, someone might actually believe this to be true... not bothering to read the entire quote.