Conquer Club

Posted: **Tue May 15, 2012 8:36 pm**

C&A Defense

Concise description:

Accused given the opportunity to defend themselves before a verdict is made

Specifics/Details:

Accused, listed in the C&A thread be notified that they have been accused of violating the rules, and
Accused, given an opportunity to respond after being notified they have been accused, and
Accused has the opportunity to respond to the accusations before a verdict is made

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

Many times accusations are made erroneously and players are often caught surprised by the sentence
While C&A is not a court of law, most people are given the opportunity to at least respond to allegations before a verdict is made.
Reduce the number of upset paying customers, falsely charged
An additional step will need to be developed to reduce the chance for thread wars to develop. (possible idea, close the thread after accused has responded)

Posted: **Tue May 15, 2012 9:47 pm**

There's no reason to do this for multi accusations. The others might have merit, but I don't think it's the job of the hunters to contact everybody.

Posted: **Wed May 16, 2012 2:06 pm**

Night Strike wrote:There's no reason to do this for multi accusations. The others might have merit, but I don't think it's the job of the hunters to contact everybody.

I can certainly understand where you may not want to do this for multi accusations. As I am not familiar with the processes used by hunters to do their job, I am left to say that even in those situations people should be able to defend themselves. With my little experience with IP routing, using time frequencies, and other "profiling" techniques, there are valid explanations for many of them.

As for the contacting part. Maybe the C&A thread can automatically send a PM to the accused using forms. Shrug.

The main point I was trying to make was the accused should at the very least know they are being accused and have a chance for "a" response before being found guilty and their sentence handed to them, surprise!

Posted: **Wed May 16, 2012 2:11 pm**

I actually think multis are the best time to contact the player involved. There are often multi accusations that can be explained by two people in the same house having accounts. Furthermore, these threads are the ones that are less likely to get out of hand. I, for one, can see why you would not want to contact someone accused of bigotry, at least not at first. These threads can get way out of hand, especially if the accused comes into the discussion. And likely, the other posters can have just as worthwhile of an argument about whether something was or was not bigotry without the accused coming into the forum.

That said, I still think that the accused should be contacted in ALL cases. I'm just making the point that I actually think the case for doing this with multis is actually stronger than other cases.

Posted: **Wed May 16, 2012 7:29 pm**

Master Kai wrote:
Night Strike wrote:There's no reason to do this for multi accusations. The others might have merit, but I don't think it's the job of the hunters to contact everybody.

I can certainly understand where you may not want to do this for multi accusations. As I am not familiar with the processes used by hunters to do their job, I am left to say that even in those situations people should be able to defend themselves. With my little experience with IP routing, using time frequencies, and other "profiling" techniques, there are valid explanations for many of them.

As for the contacting part. Maybe the C&A thread can automatically send a PM to the accused using forms. Shrug.

The main point I was trying to make was the accused should at the very least know they are being accused and have a chance for "a" response before being found guilty and their sentence handed to them, surprise!

In order to have the C&A forum set to send automatic PMs, you're assuming the person making the accusation will actually fill out the default thread form correctly. That's a HUGE assumption. And the hunters are good at using the tools at their disposal to differentiate between roommates and a single person; there are relatively few appeals that are actually overturned.

Posted: **Wed May 16, 2012 10:22 pm**

Ugh, you are right about not being able to fill out the freaking form. But maybe C&A mods could PM the person. I don't know if you view this is an extraordinary increase in workload (I don't, but I'm not one of them). But if you are worried about increased workload, I would imagine that the mods could restrict the PMs to some threshold level. The first thoughts that come to my mind are: (1) The mods could PM people only when it isn't immediately apparent that they will be cleared (e.g. not enough evidence provided, or a report on activity that is clearly within the rules; (2) the mods could PM people when they make the decision that absent contrary evidence (that may be provided by the user) they are going to issue punishment; or (3) if you like less discretionary standards, after the complaint has received a certain number of unique replies, which may evidence conflicting opinions.

I think the process works pretty well right now. But I sure as hell would be upset if I was punished and didn't get to have my say. I think there are times when a person (the accused or not) has made a good enough case that it has influenced the opinions of the mods. (I've also seen times where I think the accused sunk his own case, but that's another story.)

Posted: **Thu May 17, 2012 10:57 am**

I like the discussion. I feel like there has to be a good medium to it. If making a PM increases the workload to much, then I'd be happy to be the one to do it if that would mean someone gets at least the opportunity to have a say.

agentcom wrote:I think the process works pretty well right now. But I sure as hell would be upset if I was punished and didn't get to have my say.

I agree, the public system and discourse that occurs on the forums is a good way of fleshing out ideas of the pros and cons, and getting a more whole picture of the issue.

Thanks for the comments.

.mk

Posted: **Thu May 17, 2012 11:53 am**

Night Strike wrote:There's no reason to do this for multi accusations. The others might have merit, but I don't think it's the job of the hunters to contact everybody.

this is wrong night strike i had a clan member a while back who was busted as a multi. when in fact it was his son playing on talks with him about this (due to the fact i was going to remove him from the clan but wanted to hear what he had to say for himself.) i was told from him that it was because he paid for his kids premium.. this is what i understand to be true because both accounts were back playing after he contacted admin about it.

aka suffered because he lost his premium when if they actually contacted him he could of explained it first. there is a rule that says you can have accounts from the same ip but in that rule it does not say you should contact admin or multi hunters to advize them of the family members account. so this player was punished for i think 1 week for something that could of been explained. I am also sure this has happened before to other players.

Posted: **Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:58 am**

Some important points raised here, especially the right of an accused to know the charges and offer a defense, certainly before sentence is carried out. As an occasional browser of the C & A forum, I can see problems with the accuser not having filled out the form properly. Some tweaks may deal with both these problems.

First the form can include an requirement the accuser send the accused a copy of the charge, with exceptions allowed in certain circumstances, That notice could include the standard notice of the right to offer a defence. . If the notice to the accused has not been sent and the C & A folk feel it should be sent at this time, they can send a copy of the accusation to the accused with the opportunity to make a defense and this may resolve the matter without any need to go further- there is a reasonable explanation for the accused behavior. If they see some basis for an investigation, they can proceed to do that, with or without notification depending on the circumstances- say,there is a reference made to a Wall post, might be a good idea to check out what is there before it can be erased. Again it may be possible that a preliminary investigation , quick peak, shows the innocence of the accused or some way or resolving matters quickly and fairly.

BUT if a quick peak, a preliminary investigation, sees some merit in the accusation. then the C & A folk, again perhaps with some exceptions, can notify the accused of the charge and provide relevant details.: " From looking at game XXX and wall post YYY, ts seems the two of you may be conducting secret diplomacy, What do you have to say for yourselves?" There may be an explanation, or a guilty plea, But if the ccused denies the charge and the C & A folk don't buy the defense, they see something worth digging into deeper, then there can be a substantial digging into the case.

So apart from offering the accused some basic rights, notification of charges before sentence can save work.

Appreciate all the C&A folk have done, are doing and will do.
=D>

Posted: **Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:19 pm**

The C&A form could also be changed completely to some sort of actual web form (not a pre-made forum post). Kind of like what you see when you draft a PM. But I think that conversation is for another suggestion. Also, it may be a phpbb thing. I don't know.

Posted: **Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:18 pm**

agentcom wrote:The C&A form could also be changed completely to some sort of actual web form (not a pre-made forum post). Kind of like what you see when you draft a PM. But I think that conversation is for another suggestion. Also, it may be a phpbb thing. I don't know.

I am more and more thinking there is a problem in finding someone guilty of an offense like cheating or abuse, which could have some serious. consequences in c reputation not just among the CC community but in the broader public, given this is a public site open to all., especially if they have no chance to offer a defense before sentencing. I have seen threads on C&A where friends of the accused, clan mates, jump in saying bad things about CC because of an accusation. being made public that seems baseless. , made on weak evidence. it is a simple matter for anyone publicly accused without much of a case being made out, to rally an active defense that can be an attack on CC. We hear more and more about problems with posting on social media-Facebook, Twitter any web site Things you posted or were posted about you may come back years later to damage you- in employment, in your personal relations, How would you respond if it was posted on a public web site you had been expelled from a group for cheating at a game? or for racism or sexism? or abuse? And you had no chance to reply to the accusation before you were found guilty and expelled, Lawyer time?

So it may be fairer and safer to stop posting the publc accusation and setting up more of a TIPS/snitch line, people just PM to an address and nothing goes public until there is at least some look at the accusation and notice to the accused before sentence. So if someone makes a totally baseless accusation- "X is a cheater and a child molester. i know because I lost to him when I shouldn't have lost", the case can be dismissed without the name being dragged though public scorn(and raising legal liability questions. Also as noted in some of the discussion, a preliminary look at the case can be made without threatening the evidence- allowing a wall post to be deleted before C& A can look at it, it can be seen if a ?muti is really a multi. . If there seems something to the accusation, then the accused is notified there seems to be a problem and the matter may be resolved without much fuss and muss.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:13 am**

From a C&A mod, there are quite a few times where we will reach out to an individual and ask about certain things. Also, anyone who has ever had a case brought against them knows that we PM the person and tell him of what happened, and sometimes if the response comes back that there was some kind of confusion we note it and carry on.

That being said, no one ever says "Yes I blatantly broke your rules". There is ALWAYS a reason for the accused actions that is not Secret Diplomacy, Bigotry, Farming, etc. The accused always find an excuse, whether it be valid or not. Things like Bigotry, Multi-ing, intentional deadbeating, these are the kind of things that are quite difficult to DISprove as the proof is usually there in the form of language or missed games. From a volunteers perspective, constantly contacting the accused would bog us down, especially waiting on responses and such, timezone differences, etc. In the case of Eddie2s clanmate, he should have told the admins of what was going on right from the get go, and they could have told him how to proceed. The onus is not on us to collect evidence that leans one way or another, we look at the facts we can find, and we rule accordingly. Cases get overturned, or changed, so it's not like there isn't precedence for an overturned ruling. And, apart from being a multi, it requires more than one ruling to get a ban so if there is already prior cases against you, the excuse usually has to be pretty good.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:49 am**

Dcr go to the Q and a page.

17. Can more than one person play from the same computer?

The short answer is yes. Our Multi Hunters are pretty good at distinguishing roommates & family members from people with multiple accounts. However, some members prefer playing only in team games with people from the same computer to avoid accusations of cheating.

now tell me where it tells you to contact a admin or multi hunter it does not and tells you it is allowed.. so to bust a player that was found in a routine check not a c and a report. without asking him about it is unfair.. he even told me he was busted because they played from the same ip and he payed for his kids premium... he should of been contacted about the case first or at the very least it should be in the question quoted above that they should inform admin or multi hunters just before then just after opening the account so they can pass the user name to them.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:59 am**

You can quote that all you want, but if you don't inform someone of that when it occurs then you can't be angry when they call it being a multi. The smart play on his part would have been to tell the mods/admins this was going on. It is ok to do, but if you get busted for suspicious behaviour it is better to have that already on file than to argue about it in the first place. It is not our job to find a multi then ask them why he is a multi.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:04 am**

dcr you are missing the point the question from the rules which states about accounts from same ip's does not say let admin know.Like i said at the very least the wording should be changed to contact admin like what you are saying should be done... many are not forum goers so won't see what happens in there and this question is found in the help section at the top... like myself i never used the forums until i was reported and it was another player who told me not a c and a moderator

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:25 am**

eddie2 wrote:dcr you are missing the point the question from the rules which states about accounts from same ip's does not say let admin know.Like i said at the very least the wording should be changed to contact admin like what you are saying should be done... many are not forum goers so won't see what happens in there and this question is found in the help section at the top... like myself i never used the forums until i was reported and it was another player who told me not a c and a moderator

No, it's ridiculous to say that the C&A mods have to contact a player and say "hey, you look to be a multi, can you explain?" If your clanmate were smart, he would have contacted the Admins and let them know of the situation. He doesn't need a rule or a guideline to use his brain and make a smart decision, does he? The number one rule of this site is "no multiple accounts". If you're going to do something that might make you look like a multi (such as pay for two accounts from the same IP with the same paypal account), then be smart, and let the admins know about it! THAT IS IS THE POINT.

We don't need any other rules, and the hunters definitely don't need to go contacting players who do this. It's up to them to be above board. And if a mistake is made, and they can prove their innocence, the onus is still on the player, not the hunter.

(the above message is written by a regular CC user, NOT a tournament director)

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