New dice/game option

[seekmeup41]

I would like to propose a new game option fueld by the thousands of complaints about dice. Why not draw dice from a pool of dice so that everyone is guaranteed to have the same dice? For example, at the start of every game, everyone has a "dice pool" of 300 dice (50 repetitions of each of the 6 possible die). Every roll of the dice the die are drawn randomly without replacement from this pool of 300. When all the dice are drawn from this pool, another 300 are supplied and the draw starts again from this pool. This option would guarantee that everyone at least rolls the same number of 1s or 6s in the course of 300 dice and would end all the flame wars about unfair dice; it is currently impossible to tell what your opponent is rolling when it is his/her turn so you never know how good your dice are. Here, you would at least know that even when you get bad dice one turn, that would increase your odds of good dice in the next turns, kinda like playing single deck blackjack. I think it is worth a shot and would be simple to incorporate in the game. Comments?

Seek

[Qwert]

interesting idea,these mean that bouth side will have same distribution of 1,2,3,4,5,6.
These will be solve "random" dice problem?
Maybe you need to present these in sugestion forum.

[denominator]

That would make the dice decidedly not random.

The entire point of random is that it is impossible to know the next event. As it is now, Event A (rolling the dice) has no effect on Event B (rolling the dice again), as is the same as if you were to play RISK and roll actual dice.

However, if you have only a "pool" of X number of possible throws, then Event A does affect Event B. Everyone would be able to track their dice and know which rolls are remaining. After 299 rolls, you would know with 100% certainty what your last dice roll would be.

[Caymanmew]

I would like to propose a new game option fueld by the thousands of complaints about dice. Why not draw dice from a pool of dice so that everyone is guaranteed to have the same dice? For example, at the start of every game, everyone has a "dice pool" of 300 dice (50 repetitions of each of the 6 possible die). Every roll of the dice the die are drawn randomly without replacement from this pool of 300. When all the dice are drawn from this pool, another 300 are supplied and the draw starts again from this pool. This option would guarantee that everyone at least rolls the same number of 1s or 6s in the course of 300 dice and would end all the flame wars about unfair dice; it is currently impossible to tell what your opponent is rolling when it is his/her turn so you never know how good your dice are. Here, you would at least know that even when you get bad dice one turn, that would increase your odds of good dice in the next turns, kinda like playing single deck blackjack. I think it is worth a shot and would be simple to incorporate in the game. Comments?

Seek

but then dice would not be random... everyone complains there not random if you do this then the have a good argument

[ljex]

moved to suggestions

[TheForgivenOne]

How would this make it more random? This would probably take a bit more coding then what is currently being used. Because of the 50k dice they do use, you are pulling 300 out of that 50k. Plus there are battles where more than 300 dice are thrown. That may confuse your system a bit.

[seekmeup41]

My intent was not to make the dice random, only that the dice would be randomly drawn from a pool. I agree that it is possible someone might create a dice counter plugin to exploit the odds of rolling X # dice with my suggestion, but even such a plugin would not know the dice rolled by your opponent (only the CC computer/dice generator would know this). The dice could be pulled from a larger pool than 300 (600, 900?), but the 300 refreshes whenever it is used up so I don't see it a problem in games where lots of dice are rolled. The point is that everyone goes through at least one pool of the dice before the game ends so that for at least the first 300 (in my example) dice everyone has the same dice luck (albeit rolled at different times)

My motivation is that often CC no longer has a skill element. When I use the dice calculator plugin and it tells me I have a 95% chance of winning and I don't I find this very disappointing. But what is worse is when my opponent then thinks they somehow outplayed me. But the truth is, they may have had the same bad dice luck as me and I wouldn't know it. My suggestion would completely remove the randomness of dice and place the emphasis of the game back on strategy. Make it a pool of 600 dice if you like but I would like to make our games more about skill and less of dice luck.

But it was just a suggestion.
Seek

[MichelSableheart]

Some versions of the game "Settlers of Catan" use a similar system. Rather then coming with two dice, they come with 36 cards, with all possible combinations of 2 dice listed on them. By drawing a card from this deck, and not reshuffling till all cards are drawn, you are guaranteed that you will actually see exactly one time the combination 1-1 in 36 "throws".

This is a very interesting option to implement. The best way to do it would be to include a pool of 7776 dice combinations, which is each possible combination once. Possibly, you would have to do the same for 4, 3 and 2 dice. It would guarantee that you get exactly the amount of wins you expect if you throw 7776 times, and you know that the same goes for your opponents. It would make the dice more "fair" in that regard.

It does affect your actual chances of winning a throw, though. After you've won your first three throws 2 vs 0, you know that the chance of winning your next throw 2 vs 0 has been reduced, unlike when using actual random dice. Because of this, I would want to keep it only an option, and not implement it globally.

[seekmeup41]

Yep, as an option was all I was suggesting. However, even if you could visibly track how many 6's you have recently thrown (and hence might not want to continue attacking because you know 1s are coming) you would not be able to completely count dice because you would not know how many 6s (or 1s) you threw when it was your opponents turn. In this way, there is still some opaqueness to the dice and they can't be perfectly predicted on any one turn.

I am not proposing the use of all possible combinations like you suggest. I think that is far too complicated. I would just be happy knowing that I threw as many 6s (or 1s) as my opponent and what made the difference in the game is either A) the way we each played or B) when the 6's were drawn compared to your opponents drawing of 6s.

To me, this suggestion addresses the majority of the dice complaints in a fair way, still maintaining some randomness (in that you do not know when your 6s will be drawn from your pool of 6s) and perhaps adding the additional element of counting dice (both yours and your opponents). For example, if you see that your opponent has not thrown many 6s when it is your turn you know that they have a bunch of 6s coming. Thus, it adds the element of pressing your luck as attacker knowing that those 6s of your opponent will gurantee you a loss in the immediate future, versus ending your turn and letting your opponent draw his/her 6s when they are the attacker and hence when you might have a better chance of winning because your 6 as a defender would win.

Seek

[grifftron]

Lack just changed the dice,

How would this make it better? You could still possible roll only 1's, 2's and 3's while your opponents roll 4's, 5's and 6's... This happens sometimes with the dice, they are fine how they are now, why keep changing them until you start rolling all 6's?

I don't like this.

-griff

[Darwins_Bane]

My motivation is that often CC no longer has a skill element. Make it a pool of 600 dice if you like but I would like to make our games more about skill and less of dice luck.

Risk is all about luck of the draw. The skill involved is knowing when to risk your armies and when not to. if you don't want random don't play risk.

[seekmeup41]

My sugegstion Darwin is not incompatible with other elements of Risk. I love most of the elements of the game and I am only suggesting an "option" to the settings. Yes, the game is based on the risk of the dice roll. This is equivalent to the game of roulette where on any turn any number could be selected. My suggestion just reduces this uncertainty somewhat, akin to playing blackjack in a shoe of 7 decks of cards. More importantly, it means everyone gets the same chance of drawing a 6 over the course of the game. The when I lose, it means I lost because I was outplayed. Isn't that what most of us want to know? How good our skill level is instead of how much luck we have? Yes, we all know that the dice all even out in the end and over the course of many games our rank is indicitive of our skill and not luck. But how many times have we all played a nice even match to only have the entire game decided by a single battle (like losing 48vs26). I don't know about all of you, but I don't really like winning a game if I only won because I had great luck. I don't get much satisfaction out of those wins.

So, for those of us that are tired of the randomness of the dice rolls, tired of complaining (or hearing of complaints) about dice rolls, my "option" would add another flavor to the game. And while it may reduce some of the uncertainty of the dice, that reduction of uncertainty introduces a new element of risk (see my last post) so I don't see it as incompatible with the game of Risk. So, instead of drawing from a 50K pool of dice, let's try 600 (100 of each die, refresh 600 when pool is exhausted) and see if anyone likes it.
Thanks for the comments

[JoshyBoy]

I don't think that the way the intensity cubes work is going to change any time soon.

[TheForgivenOne]

I have to agree with Joshy and Griff. Lack just updated the dice recently. Twice. I don't think he want's to do this again.

[MichelSableheart]

What you have to realize is that the suggestion is not to update the dice again sitewide. After lack's updates, those do a pretty good job of simulating randomness.

That randomness is exactly the problem though. It means that unexpected things happen. It means that it is possible to lose a 100v10, or even worse. It means that it's possible to have a game where all you are rolling is sixes when your opponent gets one after one, or vice versa. Sure, in the long run it evens out, but in the short run, luck has a significant impact on the game.

The suggestion is to introduce an entirely new game option, which can be selected at game creation. If you select this option (and only then), the dice will indeed be less random in order to guarantee that all players will receive an equal amount of good and bad rolls on the relatively short term.

[JoshyBoy]

So basically, this suggestion is to create a game option which is totally contrary to the whole idea of this site?? A suggestion where we try to make the dice predictable and give the attacker the advantage with a more "fair" and "balanced" selection of the numbers in a 3v2 roll?? Good luck with that.

[seekmeup41]

Thanks for summarizing my suggestion so accurately MichaelSableheart. My suggestion is just a game option, and it would be far simpler to adapt the intensity cubes algorithm (for this option only) than what lack did previously.

[seekmeup41]

Well Joshyboy, it is simple, you would never have to be bothered with my suggestion since it is an "option". I disagree with most of what you say anyway. I am sure one could work out the odds of 3vs2 dice from a pool of 600 dice but it isn't like this pool is transparent to the roller. In fact, I would be happy if the pool size changed game by game or pool by pool, as long as each player had the same dice pool size. Sure, the odds might vary slightly depending on what was rolled in the past and where you are in drawing from your pool of dice, but you would have no way of knowing whether you were just finishing a pool or starting on a fresh pool of dice so again, I doubt the odds would change that much. However, what would change is that extremely unlikely events would NOT occur often (like losing 59 vs 23). Anyway, I can appreciate that many people love CC as it is (and as do I) but I thought it might be interesting to add this additional option.
Seek

[Darwins_Bane]

i can see your suggestion becoming the new way to legally cheat if it were implemented. just like farming. your trying to implement an option which makes a game that is BASED upon randomness, turn into a predictable series of events. So accurate would it be in fact that i could spend about 3 hrs and code a program to tell me when to stop attacking. and you havent even thought it through. if its 600 dice, then there the possibility(slight though it may be) that the first 200 are high rolls. that means that you are GUARANTEED to get shitty rolls for the next 400. why bother continuing? it may seem good on the surface but has some glaring pitfalls.

[JoshyBoy]

However, what would change is that extremely unlikely events would NOT occur often (like losing 59 vs 23).

That's the beauty of CC. The whole idea is for it to be random.

[seekmeup41]

Well Darwin, it would be possible to code up a program to predict the odds of winning given my proposal if you actually A) knew all the dice that were thrown (which you couldn't know because what you roll when your opponents roll is not visible and B) if you knew exactly how big the dice pool was which you were drawing from, which as I said in my last post, I would be happy if this was anywhere between as small as 30 to as large as 600. If the dice pool size changed every time is was refreshed you would have absolutely no way of predicting what your dice might be.

My proposal is based largely on the fact that often in scientific endeavor we do not use random number generators; instead we code things so that events are drawn pseudorandomly. We don't neccesarily care when events occur but we want to ensure that they occur with a certain frequency. I don't want to be able to predict my dice; all I want is to know that I got just as many 1s as my opponent. My suggestions above would make it very difficult to count the dice but would make it much more likely (than the current dice system) that the dice were evenly allocated to all players.

Frankly, I am surprised so many people are so negative about this suggestion. I guess there are players that like to know they have a small chance in hell at winning even when they are heavily outnumbered. I am not one of those people. I prefer to tip my hat, say good game, and have a rematch.
Seek

[Darwins_Bane]

Well Darwin, it would be possible to code up a program to predict the odds of winning given my proposal if you actually A) knew all the dice that were thrown (which you couldn't know because what you roll when your opponents roll is not visible and B) if you knew exactly how big the dice pool was which you were drawing from, which as I said in my last post, I would be happy if this was anywhere between as small as 30 to as large as 600. If the dice pool size changed every time is was refreshed you would have absolutely no way of predicting what your dice might be.

firstly, having a randomly changing dice pool size would effectively render the dice just like they are now. there is a 1 in 6 chance each time its rolled. the fact that its in a batch of 50k is for convenience and to reduce the fetch load on the site. and you still havent adressed the fact that no matter the batch size its still predictable. It doesnt matter what the other ppl have. if you have rolled 5's and 6's then you WILL role low dice and therefore lose. and your way, until you lose those then you can't get good dice. that seems kinda dumb to me.

My proposal is based largely on the fact that often in scientific endeavor we do not use random number generators; instead we code things so that events are drawn pseudorandomly. We don't neccesarily care when events occur but we want to ensure that they occur with a certain frequency. I don't want to be able to predict my dice; all I want is to know that I got just as many 1s as my opponent. My suggestions above would make it very difficult to count the dice but would make it much more likely (than the current dice system) that the dice were evenly allocated to all players.

it doesnt matter whether YOU want to predict the dice or not. the fact is the method you have outlined is so predictable that you don't even need to know what other ppl have. and even if you dont want to predict the dice, SOMEONE will.

Frankly, I am surprised so many people are so negative about this suggestion. I guess there are players that like to know they have a small chance in hell at winning even when they are heavily outnumbered. I am not one of those people. I prefer to tip my hat, say good game, and have a rematch.
Seek

we're not bashing you're idea. merely pointing out its pitfalls. People(mainly lack) have spent a lot of time making the dice the way they are for a reason. it provides the fewest pitfalls with the most games. and if you dont want random then you might as well do away with dice altogether and instead just win or lose by stack size.

[seekmeup41]

firstly, having a randomly changing dice pool size would effectively render the dice just like they are now. there is a 1 in 6 chance each time its rolled. the fact that its in a batch of 50k is for convenience and to reduce the fetch load on the site. and you still havent adressed the fact that no matter the batch size its still predictable. It doesnt matter what the other ppl have. if you have rolled 5's and 6's then you WILL role low dice and therefore lose. and your way, until you lose those then you can't get good dice. that seems kinda dumb to me.

I appreciate some of the things you say but my proposal is not effectively like the 50k pool we now have.Yes my proposal might require more "fetch load" but the randomly changing (but small) pool size is not the same as drawing from 50K dice. Over the course of a whole game, say you go through 1000 dice. Say these dice are drawn from pools of 30 to 300 (in deominations of 6). You might roll a bunch of 5s and 6s recently on your turn, but on your opponents turn you might have rolled 1s and 2s (and you of course don't know if they also rolled 1s and 2s on their turn), from the current pool, or 1s and 2s from a new pool (which you are unaware has now started), thus you could still roll 5s and 6s. Thus rolling 5's and 6's may indicate you have a lower probability of winning than the current version of the dice draw, but by no means does it "guarantee" you will lose. Nonetheless, this is just a suggestion for a game "option", whether it be for people who wish to make some attempt to count dice, or for the rest of us that just want to know all the dice are even. The current dice alogorithm goes to great links to make sure the chance of getting a 6 on every trial is equal. I am proposing an alternative; ensuring that the chance that I get a 6 is equal to my opponent.

I should say that the objection to my suggestion seems to indicate how serious people take cheating or dice counting. That is cool. Glad we have people trying to make the game as Risky as possible.

[JoshyBoy]

I should say that the objection to my suggestion seems to indicate how serious people take cheating or dice counting. That is cool. Glad we have people trying to make the game as Risky as possible.

Sweet Mary mother of....

[TheForgivenOne]

I should say that the objection to my suggestion seems to indicate how serious people take cheating or dice counting. That is cool. Glad we have people trying to make the game as Risky as possible.

If the script is offered to the site, then it's not really cheating. If you want to consider scripts cheating, go tell that to every user who has clickies, BOB, etc.