F400 Clan Ranking - Needs Repair

by **kuma32478** on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:09 pm

AQoH (41) over YNWA (14) - Final

Last Game
Game 12402080

by **chapcrap** on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:30 pm

happyfeet wrote:i think that the only thing to do is treat the merge between empire and AoC as a new clan. Unless, they dont change their name and the other clan just joins. since it is a merger and name will be changed they are a new clan. we dont know where they fall and like any new clan they should have a battle their way back to the top. Hopefully, this is something they figured when deciding to do the merger because its the way things are done and we shouldnt change anything because it hurts the system. all new clans have to have 3 completed wars to be added to the ranking and start at 1k.

Name change isn't really an issue. Clans have changed names before.

by **IcePack** on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:54 pm

hotfire wrote:DYN has dropped 12 spots in 8 months...i would like to see what we/they would be ranked if RL results werent included...seriously i think it is weighted way too harsh

DYN AUG 1 12 1070 pt, ranked 13th
DYN APR 1 13 963 pt, ranked 25th

Wars within that time period
RET beat DYN 24-17 03/30/13
ID beat DYN 9-3 03/12/13 - Random League
LOW beat DYN 10-2 03/10/13 - Random League
G1 beat DYN 8-4 2/18/13 - Random League
PIG beat DYN 18.5-11.5 11/14/12 - ACC
HH beat DYN 7-5 11/08/12 - Random League
TFFS beat DYN 7-5 11/02/12 - Random League
PIG beat DYN 10-2 10/31/12 - Random League
DYN beat FOED 7-5 10/27/12 - Random League
KORT beat DYN 44-17 10/24/12
DYN beat RS 24-17 10/19/12
DYN beat MB 11-1 09/22/12 - Random League?

RED = Loss
Green = Win

In the last 8 months, you've lost 2 wars, an ACC match, and 6 out of 8 RL matches.
Two out of 3 of your wins come from the bottom of the clan charts. The only one vs a top 25 clan came from a RL match (FOED) which doesn't net a ton of points (which it seems like you're wanting, because you dont want it weighted to harshly).

Remember, having a 12 game set doesn't make it any bigger weight one way or the other. It just makes your expected %'s harder to achieve with such a small amount of input. Your losses came from a variety of opponents, ranked low and high.

If you look at actual point loss, its 107 points. Quite a bit, and no way you'd stay 13th with 100 point drop without significant win results to balance that out.

To compare, if IA dropped 100 points they would go from 6th to 10th.
If OTP dropped 100 points, they'd go from 10th to 22nd.
If FOED dropped 100 points, they'd go from 15th to 27th.

There is a large cluster within mid ranked clans, and a hundred points makes a large difference on overall ranking, even though its "just 100 points".

IcePack

by **Chariot of Fire** on Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:12 pm

Remember, having a 12 game set doesn't make it any bigger weight one way or the other. It just makes your expected %'s harder to achieve with such a small amount of input

Can you just clarify this please Ice. Are you saying that if we played a clan and lost 5-7 that it would be the same as if we had lost 50-70, i.e. same amount of points lost on the F400?

by **freakns** on Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:37 pm

hey! i dont wanna drop 100 points! you drop 100 points if you like dropping!

by **IcePack** on Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:38 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:
Remember, having a 12 game set doesn't make it any bigger weight one way or the other. It just makes your expected %'s harder to achieve with such a small amount of input

Can you just clarify this please Ice. Are you saying that if we played a clan and lost 5-7 that it would be the same as if we had lost 50-70, i.e. same amount of points lost on the F400?

Sure, sorry. that's not what I was trying to get at while answering his question. You lose a lot more points in a 50-70 loss than a 5-7 loss.

by **hotfire** on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:06 pm

IcePack wrote:
hotfire wrote:DYN has dropped 12 spots in 8 months...i would like to see what we/they would be ranked if RL results werent included...seriously i think it is weighted way too harsh

DYN AUG 1 12 1070 pt, ranked 13th
DYN APR 1 13 963 pt, ranked 25th

Wars within that time period
RET beat DYN 24-17 03/30/13
ID beat DYN 9-3 03/12/13 - Random League
LOW beat DYN 10-2 03/10/13 - Random League
G1 beat DYN 8-4 2/18/13 - Random League
PIG beat DYN 18.5-11.5 11/14/12 - ACC
HH beat DYN 7-5 11/08/12 - Random League
TFFS beat DYN 7-5 11/02/12 - Random League
PIG beat DYN 10-2 10/31/12 - Random League
DYN beat FOED 7-5 10/27/12 - Random League
KORT beat DYN 44-17 10/24/12
DYN beat RS 24-17 10/19/12
DYN beat MB 11-1 09/22/12 - Random League?

RED = Loss
Green = Win

In the last 8 months, you've lost 2 wars, an ACC match, and 6 out of 8 RL matches.
Two out of 3 of your wins come from the bottom of the clan charts. The only one vs a top 25 clan came from a RL match (FOED) which doesn't net a ton of points (which it seems like you're wanting, because you dont want it weighted to harshly).

Remember, having a 12 game set doesn't make it any bigger weight one way or the other. It just makes your expected %'s harder to achieve with such a small amount of input. Your losses came from a variety of opponents, ranked low and high.

If you look at actual point loss, its 107 points. Quite a bit, and no way you'd stay 13th with 100 point drop without significant win results to balance that out.

To compare, if IA dropped 100 points they would go from 6th to 10th.
If OTP dropped 100 points, they'd go from 10th to 22nd.
If FOED dropped 100 points, they'd go from 15th to 27th.

There is a large cluster within mid ranked clans, and a hundred points makes a large difference on overall ranking, even though its "just 100 points".

IcePack

ya but can u tell me what we would be ranked if the results were omited from our ranking like they were last season when we did very well in it....as in if u used only not RL results how many points would we have dropped?

by **hotfire** on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:14 pm

IcePack wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:
Remember, having a 12 game set doesn't make it any bigger weight one way or the other. It just makes your expected %'s harder to achieve with such a small amount of input

Can you just clarify this please Ice. Are you saying that if we played a clan and lost 5-7 that it would be the same as if we had lost 50-70, i.e. same amount of points lost on the F400?

Sure, sorry. that's not what I was trying to get at while answering his question. You lose a lot more points in a 50-70 loss than a 5-7 loss.

but is 5-7 loss close to 10% of a 50-70 loss? if not why not? maybe we need to count RL as one big war and then divide points by the number of mini wars within the war

by **IcePack** on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:37 pm

hotfire wrote:ya but can u tell me what we would be ranked if the results were omited from our ranking like they were last season when we did very well in it....as in if u used only not RL results how many points would we have dropped?

I would have to go through and remove all RL from the database, not just yours. because other clans scores are affected by RL matches, and so your points from them would also be affected in non RL matches. Me just removing your RL matches wouldn't be an accurate estimate of your score.

by **hotfire** on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:38 pm

IcePack wrote:
hotfire wrote:ya but can u tell me what we would be ranked if the results were omited from our ranking like they were last season when we did very well in it....as in if u used only not RL results how many points would we have dropped?

I would have to go through and remove all RL from the database, not just yours. because other clans scores are affected by RL matches, and so your points from them would also be affected in non RL matches. Me just removing your RL matches wouldn't be an accurate estimate of your score.

well if thats too much to ask...can u give me the number of points of the 107 we lost in RL

by **Foxglove** on Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:57 am

cooldeals wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:No-one uses the coaches poll for anything though.

The coaches poll is 1 month old. Of course no one uses it. But it is a GREAT idea to allow the members of CDF to create such a poll. Once it is more established and trusted think of all the ways it could be used. This is just brainstorming so no one quote this and say that one idea is so stupid!

- A new competition where coaches poll is used for seeding rather than F400
- Using an average of F400 and Coaches Poll for seeding
- Create a rule such as "If a clan is ranked in the top 10 in the coaches poll but is ranked at least 10 spots lower in the F400 the Organizer may raise their seed to within 5 spots of their coaches poll rank"

The intent of my post is that you can use this poll to balance out any quirks you don't like about the F400 especially with new/merged clans. And you can do this by creating a system of rules that won't require a bunch of unexpected special exceptions after the fact.

This post is more about the fact that people should consider future options with the Coaches Poll than any of the other stuff that's being talked about right now.

Using the Coaches Poll for anything other than idle chatter is a horrible, terrible, no good, very bad idea for the following reasons:

1. It only ranks the top 20 clans. It's completely useless for any clan not voted into the top 20.
2. We are considering alternatives because of unfair placing of the new EMP/AOC clan, but consider that the Coaches Poll surely, surely will have more than one clan ridiculously out of place (if it's even ranked at all).
3. Most importantly, does anyone remember the recent CDF voting debacle over CC4? I posted before it began that it was a terrible idea to vote on everything, and let me just say that I have about 10 times LESS confidence in bgthebrain's randomly selected handful of voters to opinion rank half of the clan world.

by **cooldeals** on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:08 am

Foxglove wrote: I have about 10 times LESS confidence in bgthebrain's randomly selected handful of voters to opinion rank half of the clan world.

CDF is not randomly selected. Each clan gets to choose their own CDF rep. BG tried to get EVERY CDF rep to vote. It's 1 vote per clan and the clan chooses their voter. Seems like the MOST logical voting format anyone could come up with. Just wanted to clear that up.

by **Bones2484** on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:11 am

cooldeals wrote:
Foxglove wrote: I have about 10 times LESS confidence in bgthebrain's randomly selected handful of voters to opinion rank half of the clan world.

CDF is not randomly selected. Each clan gets to choose their own CDF rep. BG tried to get EVERY CDF rep to vote. It's 1 vote per clan and the clan chooses their voter. Seems like the MOST logical voting format anyone could come up with. Just wanted to clear that up.

Yes, but the most logical voting format is still the least logical ranking format.

by **cooldeals** on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:21 am

Who said the Coaches Poll was the most logical ranking format? I should have known better than to bring it up while everyone is so stirred up.

All I said is that it could have it's uses. What those are, are yet to be determined. Anyway, we should probably move this stuff to the actual Coaches Poll thread if anyone is really that into talking about it.

by **benga** on Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:57 am

PIG-TNC 6-6 2013-04-12

DYN-MD 5-7 2013-04-11

TNC-RET 4-8 2013-04-07

by **Slaylark** on Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:34 pm

I Apologize, because

i am blind where did empire and AoC rank this year?

by **IcePack** on Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:40 pm

Slaylark wrote:I Apologize, because i am blind where did empire and AoC rank this year?

They are currently unranked with the merger.

by **IcePack** on Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:48 pm

I'll be doing an update tomorrow.

by **Leehar** on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:12 am

Hi Ice, I know the wars aren't finished yet, so results probably won't be included yet, but can we see the effect of tofu-kort & afos-aoc on the rankings?

by **IcePack** on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:35 am

Leehar wrote:Hi Ice, I know the wars aren't finished yet, so results probably won't be included yet, but can we see the effect of tofu-kort & afos-aoc on the rankings?

Not on the official scoreboard no. I need final score and date completed. But I can probably make a post about it if that's all your looking for as a curiousity thing.

IcePack

by **Qwert** on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:38 am

I think that as long EMP and AOC have unfinished chalenges and any active games, they need to be on list.
Soon two chalenges in CL5 will be finished--
present score
Myth-EMP 8-6
LOW-AOC 6-3

by **IcePack** on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:42 am

qwert wrote:I think that as long EMP and AOC have unfinished chalenges and any active games, they need to be on list.
Soon two chalenges in CL5 will be finished--
present score
Myth-EMP 8-6
LOW-AOC 6-3

If a clan doesn't exist it's not kept on the scoreboard. That's been the case for any social or disbanded clan.

Once those challenges are completed they will be entered accordingly.

by **angola** on Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:11 pm

IcePack wrote:
Leehar wrote:Hi Ice, I know the wars aren't finished yet, so results probably won't be included yet, but can we see the effect of tofu-kort & afos-aoc on the rankings?

Not on the official scoreboard no. I need final score and date completed. But I can probably make a post about it if that's all your looking for as a curiousity thing.

IcePack

AFOS won 33-26, completed 4/5.

by **Chariot of Fire** on Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:16 pm

angola wrote:
IcePack wrote:
Leehar wrote:Hi Ice, I know the wars aren't finished yet, so results probably won't be included yet, but can we see the effect of tofu-kort & afos-aoc on the rankings?

Not on the official scoreboard no. I need final score and date completed. But I can probably make a post about it if that's all your looking for as a curiousity thing.

IcePack

AFOS won 33-26, completed 4/5.

Only 59 games?

by **Leehar** on Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:23 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:
angola wrote:
IcePack wrote:
Leehar wrote:Hi Ice, I know the wars aren't finished yet, so results probably won't be included yet, but can we see the effect of tofu-kort & afos-aoc on the rankings?

Not on the official scoreboard no. I need final score and date completed. But I can probably make a post about it if that's all your looking for as a curiousity thing.

IcePack

AFOS won 33-26, completed 4/5.

Only 59 games?

If I remember correctly, There was a problem with 1 of the games contravening a rule, and the remake not being made with the correct settings, so they were both discounted and another remake was not started since it wouldn't impact the result

F400 Clan Ranking - Needs Repair

Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 04-01-13]

Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 04-01-13]

Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 04-01-13]

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