Das Schloß [QUENCHED #2]

[barterer2002]

Clearly I don't understand how the game engine works. I'm not trying to be stubborn, just trying to find a workable solution and since I don't fully understand this problem maybe I'll just pose my thoughts and you can explain how it won't work.

My understanding is that the game engine looks for circumstances at two times during a turn. 1). At the beginning of the turn it looks to see if Player A is holding certain bonuses etc. Presumably it is this part of the programming that objective based wins work off of and where we'd expect that the conditions of this map would also check. Similarly I am working on the assumption that you can not check to see if Player B, C, D or E has reached certain objectives at this time either. 2). Midturn-at this point the game engine check to determine whether a player who has just had a tert taken has any terts left or if they have been eliminated. Is it possible at this point to look, not at the opponent but at the territory. Or is it unable to be map specific on that and it would slow down the game throughout the site unnecessarily?

You're not listening... Yes all of the above *could* be done - if Lack wrote some code... however - as Lack hasn't offered any changes of the like above - then it won't happen...

Also - you're missing the bigger picture - the Objectives win isn't just limited to this map - so your above changes would affect other maps - where the "hold for 1 turn" (Just like any continent bonus) is evaluated at the beginning of your turn.

It makes sense for the Objective to have to be held for a turn - in fact - this harks back to the board game - with Mission cards you had to hold the mission for a turn and at the beginning of your next turn - declare your win.

C.

Its not that I'm not listening Yeti, its just that I'm not very bright and need things explained to me as if I were 5 sometimes.

I never played the mission cards on the board game-they came after my time-so I don't fully understand them.

So what I'm understanding you saying is that any code that is put in would affect every map, not just Das Schloss which is not desired.

So the question is How do we make Das Schloss a winnable game in larger escalating games (i'm not convinced that 6 player will produce a different result than 8 player).

The parameters of the discussion are that we need to keep the objective goal of the map as well as the limitations of game coding.

The way to win an escalating game is to cascade through the players taking their cards as they go. Is it possible to program this game to take cards without eliminating the player if you cut him back to just the parachutes? For instance the idea is that if Player A loses all his territories except for Philby that he loses his cards to the player that took them, or is this the same issue that its something that would have to be hard coded in (my apologies Yeti as I don't know where map specific things end and game engine coding begins so I'll throw out ideas, just tell me they won't work)

You could also revamp the map to make the objectives less exposed. For instance, int he original version three of the four objectives were protected by choke points. Kom Wilhelm wasn't. The revamped version has exposed Munitionsraum from two sides although Funkraum is now protected by Munitionsraum and Kom Wilhelm can be protected from Militarlager. I think it would be more helpful to have Munitionsraum open to only one other tert. I'm looking at making the four objectives easier to hold once they've been claimed. I also don't think this solves the issue, just makes it easier to hold.

I'm also wondering if the bonuses should be higher on this one. And by higher I mean ridiculously high. I'm thinking of things like +25 for holding Das Schloss rather than +3 that it now is. +20 for the Flughafen instead of the +2 that now exists. The reason is that there needs to be an incentive to go and move to get one of the objective sides and once that is done there needs to be the ability to move and get the others and its something that needs to be done before bonuses get up to 3-400 per turn in.

Feel free to shoot down any ideas, just trying to figure out how to make it work

[cairnswk]

i am following these discussion, please continue.

[Incandenza]

Well, at first I thought barterer's idea of big bonuses was just the proverbial "another brick in the wall", but there might be something to the concept of having two large bonuses (the schloss and the airport), and once a person manages to control one, they can more or less run downhill. If nothing else, larger bonuses for the hard-to-hold areas might discourage stalemate (I think).

The larger issue is still the same, tho. I imagine this map would be dynamite for trips or quads, or maybe even 3-4 player singles. Seems like the prohibitive advantage to the first mover in 1v1 has been mitigated (but not entirely alleviated, tho most maps have the same more-or-less unfixable problem). But you still have the same problem: many many popular settings are lost on this map.

Now, I feel like this was brought up before (I think by oaktown), but it's worth revisiting, at least for the moment: what if it were possible but very difficult to kill players? Like you had to kick thru a respawning 50 to take a terit that would allow bombardment of the parachute drop terits. That would at the very least make escalating a somewhat more plausible enterprise.

[Jenos Ridan]

Das Schloß?

"The(neutral gender definative article) [something]"

My German is very poor, could someone help me out here?

[barterer2002]

Well, at first I thought barterer's idea of big bonuses was just the proverbial "another brick in the wall", but there might be something to the concept of having two large bonuses (the schloss and the airport), and once a person manages to control one, they can more or less run downhill. If nothing else, larger bonuses for the hard-to-hold areas might discourage stalemate (I think).

Normally I don't like them but here you can't eliminate a player so there needs to be an incentive to get out there and grab an area, especially early.

[cairnswk]

....
Now, I feel like this was brought up before (I think by oaktown), but it's worth revisiting, at least for the moment: what if it were possible but very difficult to kill players? Like you had to kick thru a respawning 50 to take a terit that would allow bombardment of the parachute drop terits. That would at the very least make escalating a somewhat more plausible enterprise.

I really like this idea! What do others think?

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

....
Now, I feel like this was brought up before (I think by oaktown), but it's worth revisiting, at least for the moment: what if it were possible but very difficult to kill players? Like you had to kick thru a respawning 50 to take a terit that would allow bombardment of the parachute drop terits. That would at the very least make escalating a somewhat more plausible enterprise.

I really like this idea! What do others think?

I have always adored this idea - seems like it could be the "best of both worlds" - the map is objective only, unless it goes long. 50 may be too small though!

[yeti_c]

This sounds like a good idea really... Then the stronger player might be able to whittle out people one at a time - of course - if they over cook it - someone will be able to reverse that on them.

I think it should definitely only Bombard this though - as that means they can't use it to gain extra bonus...

Also - it then shifts the focus of the other players - to try to ensure he cannot bombard their safe forces out.

Also - this path to the AA guns or whatever - needs to be killer neutral - and agree that 50 may be too low.

C.

[Incandenza]

Yes, it should absolutely bombard. And it'll add a nice extra element to the map, removing people's safety nets.

I have no idea what the magic number should be. Too bad it can't be one number for escalating and one number for flat/no cards. Maybe 99? That's what mibi and I are going for with the massive artillery barrage terit in Trench Warfare. Big number and won't f*ck up the centering.

And I'm glad people like the idea. I do have my moments.

[pamoa]

First time I read a good proposition in this thread to solve the problem
The question is where should this bombardement point be, and what's the "story" explaining it ?
And what if combined with the +50 Schloss/Airport bonuses...

[cairnswk]

I'm thinking about drawing the helicopter in with +45 respawning neutrals on it, so that you can only take out the parachutes, abd the i aa battery that will be left can take care of the others coming into town.

[barterer2002]

I'm wondering if each parachute should have a unique bombardment point. Something wehre you can bombard Casey from this point but not Jones so that while you may be taking one player out at that point you're not taking all of them out (or eliminating their "safe spot" and then going after the rest of them). I was thinking of a cliff face, like along SS1-SS6 but I don't know if that makes it more cluttered.

[yeti_c]

First time I read a good proposition in this thread to solve the problem
The question is where should this bombardement point be, and what's the "story" explaining it ?
And what if combined with the +50 Schloss/Airport bonuses...

Has to be one not both - because with huge bonuses it will then be too easy to kill people off.

C.

[cairnswk]

OK.
Here is the latest version 34 to be discussed.....addition of the helicopter which will respawn each turn to 45 (not yet set) neutrals -> this will not unhinge the objective win of the gameplay, but it will give a possible out for whoever has enough troops to kill off opponents and thus make terminator and assassin games again possible.

Thoughts please.

[Gilligan]

How do you get to the helicopter?

[bryguy]

im thinkin probably from the helipad

[cairnswk]

How do you get to the helicopter?

im thinkin probably from the helipad

Correct.

[Incandenza]

I like it. It's hard to hit but easily accessible, and it's behind another set of killer neutrals so people can't sit and knock armies off of it every turn. As far as the number, well, it's essentially a 60, maybe that's enough...

One thing is that it needs to be able to bombard both the starting terits and the "1" terits, otherwise it defeats the purpose since the AA can only bombard the "2" terits.

[cairnswk]

I like it....
One thing is that it needs to be able to bombard both the starting terits and the "1" terits, otherwise it defeats the purpose since the AA can only bombard the "2" terits.

Good point!

[barterer2002]

Either that or a second helicopter for the 1's.

[cairnswk]

Either that or a second helicopter for the 1's.

but that would mean a player would have to attack two high helicopter neutrals to take a player out....that would at times be desireable...but would it be achievable in one turn?

[pamoa]

It's not necessary as you said helicopter can attack parachutes and not only bombard in fact you have 3 possibilities:

either helicopter can bombard parachutes and AA positions 1 and 2 (btw why was AA bombarding range reduced to positions 2 only);
or helicopter can bombard parachutes and positions 1, and AA positions 2;
last solution helicopter can attack parachutes (and then continue to positions 1,2 and so on), and AA bombard positions 2.

[barterer2002]

Either that or a second helicopter for the 1's.

but that would mean a player would have to attack two high helicopter neutrals to take a player out....that would at times be desireable...but would it be achievable in one turn?

I kind of thought that was the point. If the intent of this map is to be objective based then taking out your opponents armies is something that may not be desirable in one turn. And remember its not just one opponent, once you get to the helicopter you get to take out all the parachutes that aren't yours. That becomes a huge advantage.

[pamoa]

It's true it would be better adding a second attacking point, maybe a sniper point near Schloss strasse 6 with a 60 killer neutral. It wouldn't be for attacking positions 1 but to split parachutes target in two groups:

helicopter for Philby, Smith, Timms and Yves;
sniper point for Casey, Jones, Mills and Neal.

[cairnswk]

* Thinking out loud here*

What about the number of neutrals for that helicopter....is 45 enough, should it be 60; or is both of those too much given they re-spawn each turn or should it be after each round.

If someone accidentally leaves their armies in the copter at the end of a turn, they will lose them because of the re-spawning.

So i am thinking that it would advantageous to take out every player's starting position in one go.

Which would mean that most players (probably in a large game)- knowing they could be taken out from that helicopter, would stack their armies high on their start position and then probably higher on their inbound 1/2 positions.

So maybe two copters is preferable, but one only able to attack half of the group i.e. Philby, Smith, Timms and Yves; and the other able to attack Casey, Jones, Mills and Neal.

Remember, the objective is still to gain those positions and hold for one turn, but the helicopter is to enable terminator and assassin games to be completed.

At this point, i'm not in favour of the 2nd sniper point, but am in favour of the 2nd helicopter and split those two copters to target half each of the starting points.