Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

[Blitzaholic]

Aaagh, you added the feudal style bombardment from drop points... me no like. I can foresee stacking on the drop point, bombarding neutrals for cards...

drop points can only bombard their clan territories that are NOT adjacent lands.

All other changes are nice.

thank you very much natty a lot of exhaustive hours of labor and thought went into this and we appreciate your kind words, feels like our efforts went rewarded. It is a major relief.

[natty dread]

drop points can only bombard their clan territories that are NOT adjacent lands.

Just like in Feudal.

And it doesn't change the fact that you can still sit on your drop point, bombarding your clan territories for cards and build your stack. I'd like a gameplay that forces the players to move out from their drop points right from the start.

[Blitzaholic]

drop points can only bombard their clan territories that are NOT adjacent lands.

Just like in Feudal.

And it doesn't change the fact that you can still sit on your drop point, bombarding your clan territories for cards and build your stack. I'd like a gameplay that forces the players to move out from their drop points right from the start.

I hear and respect you natty, but, we also have to make this game play attractive to many outside of clans, and an overwhelming amount of players on CC seem to like this kind of game play. So, we are trying to broaden our fan base. If that is your only concern and you like a vast majority of all else, I am very happy with this and want to extend my thanks for all your time, comments and feedback, I truly appreciate it. You have great vision and helped me appreciate all the hard labor you all do as map makers. As of late, you have been my new hero natty. Now, we just need to find an xml person and yes, their name would be listed on the map.

[natty dread]

Well, it's your map and your choice of course. But from what I gather, the majority of people I have spoken with do not like that aspect of feudal, where you can just sit and stack while bombarding neutrals. It makes for stagnating gameplay.

Anyway, thanks for the thanks, although I'm not sure I deserve all that praise... I just gave you some suggestions regarding gameplay, it's you who made it all happen.

Still, apart from the bombardment issue (and I guess I can live with that, it's not like it has kept me from playing feudal or feudal epic after all) the map is starting to shape up nicely. Just one thing... Now with the colour coding of the portals, it seems that all the regions are "paired up". This kinda isolates the map into 5 different areas, which again may be troublesome in some 4-5 player games, if one player gets both of his drop points with same colour portals, and other players are sprinkled around with different portals... this could bring a big unfair advantage to whoever starts with the same colour portals.

So what I suggest here, is making all the clan portals attack portals of adjacent regions. You could colour code it so that each portal would have two colours, half one and half other... for example:

Cyan portals are bordered on one side by yellow portals and white portals on the other side. So, make one cyan portal half cyan, half yellow, the other cyan portal -> half cyan, half white.

Then, again, the white portals would go half white, half cyan and half white, half blue. Then the blue portals would go half blue, half white, and half blue, half green. And so on...

Then just specify in the legend that portals that share the same colour can attack each other. Do you get what I'm going for? It's kinda hard to explain with words...

[Blitzaholic]

Still, apart from the bombardment issue (and I guess I can live with that, it's not like it has kept me from playing feudal or feudal epic after all) the map is starting to shape up nicely. Just one thing... Now with the colour coding of the portals, it seems that all the regions are "paired up". This kinda isolates the map into 5 different areas, which again may be troublesome in some 4-5 player games, if one player gets both of his drop points with same colour portals, and other players are sprinkled around with different portals... this could bring a big unfair advantage to whoever starts with the same colour portals.

So what I suggest here, is making all the clan portals attack portals of adjacent regions. You could colour code it so that each portal would have two colours, half one and half other... for example:

Cyan portals are bordered on one side by yellow portals and white portals on the other side. So, make one cyan portal half cyan, half yellow, the other cyan portal -> half cyan, half white.

Then, again, the white portals would go half white, half cyan and half white, half blue. Then the blue portals would go half blue, half white, and half blue, half green. And so on...

Then just specify in the legend that portals that share the same colour can attack each other. Do you get what I'm going for? It's kinda hard to explain with words...

WoW, I guess I never considered that, I was thinking too much of quads or 5 vs 5 if that ever comes about. What you say here natty makes a lot of sense and I like it a lot. griff could you please add this to the key please.

[natty dread]

Here's a visual representation for griff, him being a visual learner and all...

Click image to enlarge.

Then just change the legend to say "portals that share a colour attack each other", I think that's the clearest way of explaining it.

[natty dread]

No, wait... that didn't go right. Now there's 4 portals attacking each other by that system. Hmm, I need to rethink this a bit, just a sec... I'll post a new graph in a moment.

[Hopscotcher]

No, wait... that didn't go right. Now there's 4 portals attacking each other by that system. Hmm, I need to rethink this a bit, just a sec... I'll post a new graph in a moment.

I understand what you are going for.

You could also do it in a Star fashion so that the ones opposite and next to you shared a color. that way each portal would have 3 directions, 2 near and 1 far.

[natty dread]

Ok, here it is. Each portal has 2 colours, and each colour matches one of the colours of it's adjacent portals. Thus you can say that portals that share a same colour can attack each other.

The downside is that you'll need to use some more colours to accomplish this... you may change the colours, but still, this is a system that works.

[Bones2484]

I know it's probably too late, but I feel that the map has nothing to do with clans or clan activity other than their names on it.

Wouldn't it be cool if we took some sort of approach to the gameplay that incorporated a mass clan challenge or something?

ie: Each "area" starts with 2 clan drop points with surrounding neutral territories. In order to escape the starting area you had to battle for control of an additional castle that serves as a choke point to attack outwards. Possible this castle would even lead to another castle that the winner of the first area battle would fight for control of with the winner of another starting area battle.

And eventually, they had to battle towards the pinnacle which allows you to bombard almost everything else?

Think of the map as a bracket that you had to win each zone (round) in order to advance to the next area and fight an additional opponent.

More or less the same concept, but gives more of a "clan challenge" feel to this map more than names. Because right now the theme is just boring. It's Feudal with different titles and I doubt the map will ever make it out of gameplay in it's current state.

[Blitzaholic]

More or less the same concept, but gives more of a "clan challenge" feel to this map more than names. Because right now the theme is just boring. It's Feudal with different titles.

What you are suggesting more or less gives the same concept like you said. It is not feudal with different titles, there are portals and a pinnacle component.

Ok, here it is. Each portal has 2 colours, and each colour matches one of the colours of it's adjacent portals. Thus you can say that portals that share a same colour can attack each other.

The downside is that you'll need to use some more colours to accomplish this... you may change the colours, but still, this is a system that works.

yes natty, this is exactly what was needed. Can you add that griff, when you have time? The visual guru has spoke.

[Bones2484]

More or less the same concept, but gives more of a "clan challenge" feel to this map more than names. Because right now the theme is just boring. It's Feudal with different titles.

What you are suggesting more or less gives the same concept like you said. It is not feudal with different titles, there are portals and a pinnacle component.

That's super. But what do portals have to do with clans?

Again, the theme of this map is clans... and the only way the theme is incorporated into this map and gameplay is with names alone. There is nothing else that gives me the impression of clans here.

[denominator]

More or less the same concept, but gives more of a "clan challenge" feel to this map more than names. Because right now the theme is just boring. It's Feudal with different titles.

What you are suggesting more or less gives the same concept like you said. It is not feudal with different titles, there are portals and a pinnacle component.

Bones has a point though.

While I do like the map (although not so much the direction it has gone lately - it's just Feudal with portals), it really has nothing to do with the initial concept. If you changed the names of the main territories from Clan names to neutral names, the map would have nothing to do with clans whatsoever.

Right now, I think it will turn out as a decent map, but at this point it may be worth scrapping the "clan" idea and instead going with a plain map with the gameplay concept you have. It's essentially a cross between Feudal and WWII Poland.

[Bones2484]

Right now, I think it will turn out as a decent map, but at this point it may be worth scrapping the "clan" idea and instead going with a plain map with the gameplay concept you have. It's essentially a cross between Feudal and WWII Poland.

If that is the direction that is taken, then I agree completely. It's a map with a decent concept (though not too original) for gameplay, it just doesn't fit the current theme which I thought was the main goal.

[Blitzaholic]

Think of the map as a bracket that you had to win each zone (round) in order to advance to the next area and fight an additional opponent.

I think this is a great idea, but, reading many suggestion from past pages, we were to appeal to a larger audience then just clans.

[denominator]

Think of the map as a bracket that you had to win each zone (round) in order to advance to the next area and fight an additional opponent.

I think this is a great idea, but, reading many suggestion from past pages, we were to appeal to a larger audience then just clans.

So make two maps. Change the name and theme of this one, which does and will have a wide audience, and start a second clan based map.

[Bones2484]

If the map has great gameplay, I don't think a "lesser known" theme would affect it too much. Look at all the maps we have of countries/cities that don't have a large population. Or all of the "fantasy" maps.

I don't see why making something that includes clans, and involves a clan theme, would not be played if the gameplay was still awesome.

[grifftron]

Click image to enlarge.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4041/438 ... d970_o.jpg

This goes along with nattys suggestion that Blitz wanted on the map, the color coded portals pretty much mean you can attack clans on both sides, or neighboring clans on both sides, the color code for the portals is not the clearest right now and im sure the color blind community will go nuts on this one but if they idea passing and people like it, we can figure out something else for this that will work better for all CC players (color and shape wise)...

Also Blitz PM WidowMakers who agreed to do the xml for the map if it makes it to the Graphic forum. So welcome WM to the team.

-griff

[Coleman]

All of my complaints about the current map are graphical and thus do not suit this stage of development. The game-play seems proven (very similar to highly successful feudal maps; I must say that playing any feudal map 1v1 feels the most like playing chess of any map ever, very thought intensive, lots of strategy) so no complaints really there.

I do have one concern about the theme, and it involves me pondering just how stable these clans are. I suppose the map could become historical should some of these CC clans fall apart, but I don't think lack would be willing to constantly accept and apply art updates should clans change too much. Mostly that is a small complaint as there have been many themes for maps and I don't see why CC clans should be deemed unacceptable, even if it doesn't really draw my particular interest.

Still a cartos castle could get you a long way. j/k

Really I can't come up with much until we are talking art. Then I probably have a list of 20+ things I don't particularly like, all of which are fixable.

EDIT: Actually after a little bit more time to reflect there is something that bothers me, but after 40 pages of discussion I can't really expect it to change. I don't really understand why you need a center of the map that attacks all the starting positions. Is it just a concern for assassin games?

[Finsfleet]

The pinnacle also makes it different then feudal as you can take the clan starting point and advance all troops there.

That is certainly the truth. However, the fact that you can only attack adjacent clans directly remains. Also, in the current version, you can do this in two ways: by portals and castles. Wouldn`t it be more interesting if you could attack some other clan territory by the portal?

[natty dread]

Now that I think of it, it'd probably be more interesting if the portals would connect to the clan on the opposite side.

eg. TOFU <-> LOW, IA <-> THOTA, and so on.

[Evil DIMwit]

Now that I think of it, it'd probably be more interesting if the portals would connect to the clan on the opposite side.

eg. TOFU <-> LOW, IA <-> THOTA, and so on.

I like the idea of connecting them symmetrically in a circle, i.e.,
... <-> The Spanking Monkeys <-> Imperial Dragons <-> Legends of War <-> Black Sheep Squadron <-> ...
By increments of three, all the way around. It gives you two directions to go for by the portals; that's four clans you can reach directly, and another four that are just one clan away.

[Mr_Adams]

Pinnacle resets after EACH players turn. What if it reset at the beginning of the player who owns it's turn? that way, if you wanted to, you could sacrifice a large number to cause a road block if you so desired (for just a turn).

[natty dread]

What if it reset at the beginning of the player who owns it's turn

It already does. That's how killer neutrals work.

[Blitzaholic]

I don't really understand why you need a center of the map that attacks all the starting positions. Is it just a concern for assassin games?

That is part of it, but, also, like the P.A.F. on the Poland map, we wanted to have center of attraction and make Pinnacle worth going after, at least for some players playing to provide more action and options.

Now that I think of it, it'd probably be more interesting if the portals would connect to the clan on the opposite side.

eg. TOFU <-> LOW, IA <-> THOTA, and so on.

I like the idea of connecting them symmetrically in a circle, i.e.,
... <-> The Spanking Monkeys <-> Imperial Dragons <-> Legends of War <-> Black Sheep Squadron <-> ...
By increments of three, all the way around. It gives you two directions to go for by the portals; that's four clans you can reach directly, and another four that are just one clan away.

I agree, I think it gives more attack options if we could only attack clans adjacent. I think griff has them on opposite sides now, but, I like the adjacent attacks, one on each side, because now you have to worry about 2 clans or getting sandwiched.

The game-play seems proven (very similar to highly successful feudal maps; I must say that playing any feudal map 1v1 feels the most like playing chess of any map ever, very thought intensive, lots of strategy) so no complaints really there.

Really I can't come up with much until we are talking art. Then I probably have a list of 20+ things I don't particularly like, all of which are fixable.

thank you very much Coleman, we look forward to your input in the graphics forum.

Also Blitz PM WidowMakers who agreed to do the xml for the map if it makes it to the Graphic forum. So welcome WM to the team.

-griff

Very thrilled to have WidowMakers accept, he is one of the very best in the business.