Conquer Club

Accused: bfoufou 89 was at 1 point. attacks teammate very often in many games
Game 5574515 4 team doubles..attacking partner on turn 2

Danger Mouse 69
Game 2168419 only attacks teammates...and its not for bonuses

bigö 60
Game 3630009 looks like he just autoed everything on turn one, including two of teammates..and goes on to kill more as game goes on

braveheartspirit 35
Game 5609750 teammate accuses him of sabotaging game

africaboy 1 assasinates teammates in many games
Game 3525655
Game 4869338 first turn attacking partners 3 for no other reason but to throw game


The accused are suspected of:

throwing games

Game number(s): many games

Comments: I dont think its reasonably possible to get one point, without intentionally deadbeating. There is the possibility of a learning disorder, or something like that...and if that case applies, I truly apologize, but its fairly clear....and fairly reasonable to assume, that anyone below 200, is really aiming for that score, and intentionally throwing games.

Certianly africa boy and bfoufou(who had 1 point) necessarily did it on purpose.

I think any under 200 should be warned, and I also think a minimum score should be set at 500 or as low as 400, to stop these point terrorists once and for all.

Right now, this is the only recourse, and I think its simply obvious they deserve a warning for throwing games, which they simply have to be doing to lose this many. Nows the time to stop this I think.

A person with a score of 500 can still take 100 points from anyone above 2500. And a person with a score of 400 can take 100 points from anyone above 2000.

I think those are reasonable limits, because 100 points to a colonel or a major is just 4% or 5% respectively.

With no lower limit, a player sitting on 1 point can take 100 points from virtually any opponent. That means 10% of the score of a new recruit (or someone who wins as often as they lose). And it is a nearly 15% score drop if someone at 700 points loses to someone with 1 point.

I like the idea of having 500 points as a low score cap (instead of 1). If you beat someone with 500 points you would still gain points but they would not lose any more. This would protect the majority of the scoreboard from point terrorists (and I can't imagine many high rankers end up in these sorts of games anyway).

As for the cheating report, I would say most assuredly that anyone below 100 points is purposefully throwing games. Some players below 500 points might not be doing it on purpose.

Mayhaps they just have Down Syndrome. You ever stop to think about that!!!

sully800 wrote:I like the idea of having 500 points as a low score cap (instead of 1). If you beat someone with 500 points you would still gain points but they would not lose any more. This would protect the majority of the scoreboard from point terrorists (and I can't imagine many high rankers end up in these sorts of games anyway).

No. That screws up the overall score count (all in all, the average per account stored in the database should pretty much be around 1000 points per account). Better to implement an option where you auto-block people below a certain amount of points from joining your games (shouldn't be game specific, rather one general setting with the possibility to deactivate it on a case-by-case basis when setting up games).

yeah, a 500 bottom would cause strange effects to the scoring system overall i think... and there is no reason to have it bottom out there...

but seriously, once you get to like 100, arent you only losing like 1 or 2 points a game? how many games do you have to lose in a row to get to 1? i agree with fitz that these people must be bombing on purpose...

King_Herpes wrote:Mayhaps they just have Down Syndrome. You ever stop to think about that!!!

downs syndrome does not cause or encourage play of that measure.

sorry about you little butt.

jammyjames wrote:

King_Herpes wrote:Mayhaps they just have Down Syndrome. You ever stop to think about that!!!

downs syndrome does not cause or encourage play of that measure.

sorry about you little butt.

Lmao.

ye p throwing games all right

darkangelsguy205 wrote:yep throwing games all right

Can I ask how you came to the conclusion that he is throwing the games? I admit getting down to 1 point must be hard.

I took a quick look at africaboy's games. He has 220+ games completed. Only a handful are singles games, 27 doubles, 114 trips and 79 quads. I am not saying that he isn't throwing games but to have over 200 team games and I can't find one complaint in the forums about his game play. Most of the time his partners are very low ranking, but he has had some mid ranked partners. Is he that good at losing? Or is he that bad at winning?

Why stop at accusing the lowest 5 of cheating. How about the lowest 100.

Using this logic is it safe to say the top 5 also cheat?

just cuz you lose and have no points does not mean you intentionally lose. Maybe it means your not very good. Your dice a absolutely horrid. You play team games with out team players. You play the wrong maps.

But to be accused solely because your the bottom 5?

If your afraid of playing them put em on foe and sleep peacefully.

Banning a few of those users would not be unprecedented. It has happened before.

King_Herpes wrote:Mayhaps they just have Down Syndrome. You ever stop to think about that!!!

Actually, I suggested that might actually be a serious possibility and even apologized if that was the case for any of them

alstergren wrote:

sully800 wrote:I like the idea of having 500 points as a low score cap (instead of 1). If you beat someone with 500 points you would still gain points but they would not lose any more. This would protect the majority of the scoreboard from point terrorists (and I can't imagine many high rankers end up in these sorts of games anyway).

No. That screws up the overall score count (all in all, the average per account stored in the database should pretty much be around 1000 points per account). Better to implement an option where you auto-block people below a certain amount of points from joining your games (shouldn't be game specific, rather one general setting with the possibility to deactivate it on a case-by-case basis when setting up games).

Except that the point count wont be anywhere near 1000 games per account. Many games have been deleted. Many multis have thrown it off to the point where its irrelevant. Perhaps 500 is not the right number...and perhaps 250 is...at that level, the number of points affected wont be anywhere near the amount of damage these players are able to do.

Keep in mind, It doesnt affect me if a guy with one point, or 500 points joins my game... I lose the same, or close to it anyways. Its the players at 1000, essentially the newest players that suffer from these guys...who are undoubtedly purposely trying to get to one point. If we remove the goal, we remove the temptation for players to break the rules to get there.

jefjef wrote:(1.)Why stop at accusing the lowest 5 of cheating. How about the lowest 100.

(2.)Using this logic is it safe to say the top 5 also cheat?

(3.)just cuz you lose and have no points does not mean you intentionally lose. Maybe it means your not very good. Your dice a absolutely horrid. You play team games with out team players. You play the wrong maps.

(4).But to be accused solely because your the bottom 5?

(5.)If your afraid of playing them put em on foe and sleep peacefully.

1. Because I only fully suspect the lowest 5 of absolutely throwing games enough to make the accusation. I suspect others, but drew the line there. If you suspect more of them, you are free to accuse them too. I would probably agree that some of them are without a doubt purposely throwing games.

2. If you think its logical to accuse the top 5 of throwing games, than be my guest.

If you mean that the highest must be cheating to get the highest rank, then the logic is completely different. it is very possible to reach the top 5 without breaking the rules. It is however, much more difficult to reach one point, simply because of the math involved. Without a doubt its possible that the players are simply joining games that they know they will lose, and try to win them....but I find it more likely that to achieve their goal, they are throwing games to do it. Also, its possible they did lose by accident. However, I think they did it on purpose, as many have before them.

3. just cuz two accounts are on the same ip doesnt make them multis...though many are

4. im not accusing them solely because they are at the bottom or because they are on the bottom...if they had 200, 300 or 400 points, and were the lowest ranked...I would not be posting this...but because their scores are so low under 100...and much below that for some of them...and 2 who hit 1 point...Its obvious its not by accident. If there were 100 people below 100 or so, id accuse them too. I think any that have hit 1 point, or 50 points or 100 have intentionally thrown games to do so, and are guilty of breaking the rules. Im sure theres an exception here or there, but I suspect not many...ie the cheating accusation. Do you think the person with 1 point is not throwing games? If so, by all means explain why, and how it happened.

5.Im not afraid of playing them, because their score is so low its irrelevant to me. Ill lose 100 either way up to much higher up the scoreboard than the last 5.

However, raising the bar will protect the players that are actually trying at say 700-1200 points, from getting smashed by players that I feel are purposely throwing games. Those players are being cheated, and do not deserve it. They also would not understand the scoring system, or the foe system well enough, so your advice to foe is completely useless.

More importantly, I feel those players are throwing games to get to that low score, so no one should have to do anything to protect themselves against a loss to them. It is they who could be cheating, and they who the action should be directed towards.

I do admit, that it is very easy to lose points, even on purpose, without throwing games. I have indirectly done it myself. If I join 30 assassin doodle games right now, I will drop hundreds of points instantly, even if I play at my absolute best...or even play better than that. However, no matter what games I play, or anyone plays, the simple math makes it very difficult to get to one point, without throwing a game. There are a few ways to do it, but I suspect these were not used.

Once new players are protected from losing near 100 points to these players that in my opinion are openly breaking the rules....then I will sleep peacefully.

I hope this allows you to sleep peacefully, knowing that quite a deal of thought was put into the accusation, and that these poor players are not being unfairly targeted because of their position on the scoreboard, but because of an educated suspicion that they are actually cheating based on their scores.

If they want to post that they really are trying to win, and just cant seem to win a game and accidentally got down to 1 point...that is fine with me, and Ill be sure to consider it...and even help them win a point...or 100, which would simply be as easy as playing 5 1v1 doodle games, which mathematically, would almost insure they won 100-200 points, no matter what their actual skill level.

This C+A report is an abuse of the forums. What a waste of my eyes, the servers hard drives, and the internet in general

e_i_pi wrote:This C+A report is an abuse of the forums. What a waste of my eyes, the servers hard drives, and the internet in general

I disagree. I feel its an attempt to stop cheating that has been going on for a long time. I think the players that have been purposely losing games, are point terrorists, and have been cheating the system and other players unchecked for far too long. Im glad someone finally tried to do something about it. Many others seem to agree.

I sense you disagree, but this fundamental disagreement is arguably what makes the internet so fun...if at times arguably wasteful...certainly though, you have the ultimate choice on what to use your eyes for. You can check my wall for some useful information there, if they actually bother you.

It might be less wasteful, if you explain your reasons why you think players at 1 point or 30 points arent throwing games though..or perhaps why you think they should be immune from the rule of not throwing games. I think perhaps a bigger waste of the internet systems could be people throwing out opinions with no justification, reasoning, or explanation of their posts, but again...disagreement is possibly why the internet is so popular in the first place. You certainly seem to enjoy differing opinions, as do I. If everyone agreed, there would really be no point, would there.

If you truly think this is some kind of abuse though... you can make a post in this forum. Ill be sure to explain my side of the situation, which will hopefully appease your worries.

For those who think this is completely made up, and that these players somehow are just accidentally going down to zero... I suggest you take a look at their games, and it is pretty apparent they all seem to attack their own team members quite often.

Its impossible to know if this is always in an effort to throw the game, but the sheer volume of instances, and the fact that their scores are so impossibly low, is more than enough reason to suspect them of throwing games to dump all of their points.

If someone really thinks that one of these guys is really trying to win, and just cant seem to...please post. Ive looked through nearly 100 games, and while they seem to be trying in some of them...overall, I cant imagine it is coincidence that they keep losing, and keep attacking their teammates.

None of the cases are completely obvious by any stretch, and Im not saying they are...its very easy to throw a game, with just one attack, or non attack, so proving it on an individual basis is pretty tough...but coupled with the repeated teammate attacks...the near perfect loss rate, and the fact that they are all below 100 points....makes it very clear that losing points is their goal, and that they are purposely losing games to do so.

This is cheating their teammates, and cheating the players they play when they do decide to win, by having artificially low scores, that they broke the rules to get. In any case, it certainly warrants an abuse thread, and in my opinion a warning at the very least to each of them, and any that get their scores this low. Further, I think it can be easily stopped, by simply raising the low point threshold so that the ability to drop to one and smash new players for points will virtually be eliminated.

I am without a doubt interested in explanations of how they might not be cheating, so by all means post those scenarios and their plausibility in these cases.

Your own words......

"Ive looked through nearly 100 games, and while they seem to be trying in some of them."

Strange how the majority of those they play with/against doesn't rate them or tag them as cheaters and poor players.

You may be right about a couple of them. You may be wrong.

just saying........

BTW: YOU are the accuser. YOU need to provide the proper evidences. YOU need to BE SURE BEFORE ACCUSING SOMEONE.

jefjef wrote:Your own words......

"Ive looked through nearly 100 games, and while they seem to be trying in some of them."

Strange how the majority of those they play with/against doesn't rate them or tag them as cheaters and poor players.

You may be right about a couple of them. You may be wrong.

just saying........

BTW: YOU are the accuser. YOU need to provide the proper evidences. YOU need to BE SURE BEFORE ACCUSING SOMEONE.

I did provide the proper evidences in my opinion. I am 100% sure that this warrants investigation...as I have been of the very few accusations Ive made in my years on CC.

Also, while you seem to be accusing me of not putting the proper time into considering this case...which of course the explanations Ive presented go far beyond this already... you might forget that I have played the game for years, and have played more than enough team games to understand what it takes to throw a game, and how easy it is to do. I also understand the point system, and what it takes to lose so many.

Now, with every accusation, there is always the possibility that I am wrong. I could probably come up with more possible excuses for these guys than anyone.

As far as the ratings go, you talk about a majority not rating them and calling them bad teammates...but in actuallity, its more likely that the majority have not rated them at all. Further, if you actually look at the games, youll see the majority of these teammates wouldnt necessarily understand the ratings, or the game enough to realize if a player was sabotaging it.

Now, again, if you actually have input on the actual case: Do you think these guys are trying to win? Do you think they are trying to win, and not throwing games and are accidentally reaching one point?

These are very easy questions, and you still seem to be avoiding them, and are instead focusing some kind of accusation against me...which, as I think Ive demonstrated...actually is completely unfounded, given the extensive explanations of my suspicions...which are of course...well beyond what is necessary to start a cheating thread. You may also want to read the post of the former multi hunter that completely agrees with my assessment. Privately Ive also discussed this with many others, who are all experienced players and all came to the same conclusion, so... while you are free to accuse me of making an unwarranted accusation... you might want to accept the fact that Ive given it far more thought than you have...and, in the end am actually almost undoubtedly right about the rule breaking in this case.

Perhaps you should focus on the actual facts of the case, instead of leaping to conclusions and off the cuff posts...which of course is ironically, what youve mistakenly accused me of.

As I said You may be correct on a couple of them.

Bfoufou.. Won 2 games ago. Speed 5720491 vs killing and his pard. and was the one who eliminated killings pard.

Danger Mouse. last win 6 games back. trips against quality players.

AfricaBoy.. 26 games ago. 4985068. Made the winning kill for team victory. Against quality players.

You may be right about a couple of them. But most of them IMO are just BAD players who play low percentage win games. & Team games they are in are not working teams.

jefjef wrote:Bfoufou.. Won 2 games ago. Speed 5720491 vs killing and his pard. and was the one who eliminated killings pard.

Little shitwad missed two turns then showed. Threw the whole thing off.

Fitz,

I usually like your articles. This one is bad. Are you saying that people with "negative learning curves" - at least initially, are cheats?
Where is your evidence?
Game numbers?
Recipients of the points?
.44 just got beat in dubs by 1 of these players so maybe some people take a while to improve.

Are they all free pointing freemiums?

Your maths is skewed re min pts as will lead to even more pt inflation.
Also this will be bigger incentive to cheat re point pt dumping if 500 was min.

KH - Downs syndrome gag is his worst ever, usually I find him hilarious.

One thing - and only one I could possibly agree with / understand in this distasteful thread is - just "how can you possibly get that low in pts???" - down to 1 - are you kidding??

Fitz - I look forward to reading your helpful / interesting / inciteful threads in the future.

Nipper

jefjef wrote:As I said You may be correct on a couple of them.

Bfoufou.. Won 2 games ago. Speed 5720491 vs killing and his pard. and was the one who eliminated killings pard.

Danger Mouse. last win 6 games back. trips against quality players.

AfricaBoy.. 26 games ago. 4985068. Made the winning kill for team victory. Against quality players.

You may be right about a couple of them. But most of them IMO are just BAD players who play low percentage win games. & Team games they are in are not working teams.

Yes, bfoufou has started to win much more, after hitting one point as a score which you may not realize he was at a week or so ago....I agree, that he seems to be playing better now. I also think now that he has hit one point, he perhaps has stopped throwing games. I still fully believe he threw them to get there in the first place though.

I saw that game with africa boy. He did make the winning hit. He also was still hitting his teammates in the game quite a bit, and his finishing blow was against the final two red spots left on the board. I do not believe that game was won because of him, but in spite of him.

Personally, I feel better about suggesting that they are throwing games, than suggesting they are actually poor enough players to get to under 100 points. In any case I think its laughable to think that someone accidentally got to 30 points, without actually trying to do so.


bfoufou 1 point...kills partner repeatedly in many games
africaboy 1 point...kills partner repeatedly in many games
braveheartspirit 35 2009-09-23 14:22:58 - rmt333: I believe he is sabotaging or he is helping you guys

these are confirmed in my opinion...not just accused
I simply need more time to post conclusively that the other two have repeated patterns, which I considered more than enough to make the thread.

Ill try to do some more leg work tonight...again...I know it cant be proven conclusively...which of course is why I suggested a simple warning...and scoreboard change...but Ill add to the hours Ive spent...because it will undoubtedly be better for the honest players of CC. I do respect you trying to protect players you think are innocent... I just happen to think you are wrong about their innocence.

nippersean wrote:Fitz,

I usually like your articles. This one is bad. Are you saying that people with "negative learning curves" - at least initially, are cheats?
Where is your evidence?
Game numbers?
Recipients of the points?
.44 just got beat in dubs by 1 of these players so maybe some people take a while to improve.

Are they all free pointing freemiums?

Your maths is skewed re min pts as will lead to even more pt inflation.
Also this will be bigger incentive to cheat re point pt dumping if 500 was min.

KH - Downs syndrome gag is his worst ever, usually I find him hilarious.

One thing - and only one I could possibly agree with / understand in this distasteful thread is - just "how can you possibly get that low in pts???" - down to 1 - are you kidding??

Fitz - I look forward to reading your helpful / interesting / inciteful threads in the future.

Nipper

Well, nipper... Im sorry this one cant be of a positive nature...though I will point out I specifically point out that they really should only be warned that game throwing is against the rules. Personally, after seeing how many times a few of them attacked their partners though...I think perhaps they deserve more...weather or not that can be proved is hard to say. For the most part, its not worth it on my end trying to prove it... Im just trying to stop others from throwing games to get to one point...which many have before...and if something is not done...many will again.

It is possible that one or two of these players are trying to get to one point and are being very smart about it, and arent throwing games. However, It does not seem that way to me, and the two that did hit 1 point are no doubt sabotaging games...or did sabotage games to get there. It doesnt take much to turn a team game, and in many of them, these guys attack their teammates multiple times. One or two, here or there could possibly be to take a bonus...but they never do hold a bonus, and it happens in so many games, that I am more giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they arent so bad as to think that killing their teammates 3's on the first turn, is actually a winning move. I honestly think this accusation is less insulting to them, than the suggestion that these guys are this bad, and simply cant find a way to win points.

I agree that it would be unfortunate if one of these guys actually did have a learning disorder...and I covered that already, and was fully serious about it. Ive already come across this situation once before, and always try to keep it in mind, when something seems off, because it sometimes really is unavoidable.

Without a doubt, I am making some assumptions here, but at the same time, these assumptions have been made at looking at many games, understanding the game, and fully understanding the math and odd involved that would result in the score of one...or 30, or even 80. Obviously as the score goes up, its far more possible that it is a result of game choice...but I simply dont think it is, and think it warrants a warning....to make them aware that if they are dumping points on purpose, by throwing games...that its illegal. I also understand the game and the scoring well enough to know it is technically possible to choose the right games, and try to win each of them, and still never win. I could shed most of my points very quickly, without ever breaking the letter of the law...though to be honest, Im not sure I could quite get to 1 point....that really does require a losing streak that is near perfect, and one accidental win of 50 points, is a big setback if you are only losing 3 or 4 points every game.

After years of playing here, and seeing many point terrorists go down to one, and then just go smashing unsuspecting players for huge wins that they do not deserve, I think it would be better for CC, and especially its lowest ranked players to simply raise the floor to some agreed upon level, that will limit the damage from the few that purposely try to throw games to get to one or near one, circumvent the rules to achieve the same, or simply really are so poor as many are suggesting they may be...and simply give them a handicap, so they do not have to suffer the stigma of having a score of single digits or one.

The suggestion simply has no downside to it. It protects the honest players from the cheats, the honest players from the less than honest, and the honest, if not point oriented from themselves. There is no downside....the only question is at which score to stop the scoreboard... certainly 1 is not the best place, because its always going to attract abuse...and raising it will only help the few players that everyone seems to be so concerned about...the ones that are simply unable to keep their score above 100.

I do believe its possible you are perceiving only the negative side of this thread...and not realizing that the ultimate goal, is to improve CC measurably...and not even the section of CC that affects me in any way. Im trying to protect the players that are actually trying to gain points, from having them unfairly stolen, by those who choose to ignore the rules....or purposely break them, for a little fun.

Keeping a close watch on this....Decent healthy discussion. We are talking about it behind the scenes too