Foundry Death?

[DiM]

you say that it will stay in the forge for as long as it takes to be quench worthy. that's wrong. maps should reach forge only when they're 99% done. as a map maker i'd hate to see people asking for major revamping if my map is in forge and i'd be less inclined to do it.

I must agree with Dim,what is point of having Main map Foundry,when map in Final forge author must complete rewamp hes map(Civil war,Netherland)
.

I agree however alot of that blame goes to the community, rather than the system. The lack of feedback on maps has lead andy to believe the community is satisfied rather than ignorant of a map.

The key problem here is feedback/ community input.

actually it's andy's job to make the difference between lack of interest and general approval.

if a map has 50 pages and 30 updates and at some point people stop posting it is rather clear that there is interest and that everybody is happy so the map can be safely moved to forge.

if a map has 10 pages and 5 updates and people stop posting then again it is clear the map lacks interest and it should be left to rot.

final forging a map that doesn't deserve it causes more harm than good because the map maker sees his map forged and falsly assumes it is very good. then when somebody comes and says it's crappy he is feeling hurt even if the guy that says it's crappy is right.

[oaktown]

conqueropoly des not suffer from a lack of interest... in fact, it suffers from an overabundance of interest. There are a lot of posts in that thread in just five weeks, and many of the comments are positive; few offer constructive criticism. The quench-it crew showed up early on that one.

Its interesting that this thread went this direction. On the one hand we're concerned that outsiders don't post in the foundry. But here we have an example of a map idea that attracted a lot of casual interest, and we don't like the result. And Evil_Otto's old map was, indeed, better looking - interesting that the old map couldn't get forged six months ago, yet this one can. Perhaps the Foundry is suffering.

Anyway, I've posted in the conqueropoly thread. I encourage the rest of you to post as well. It's not a bad map, it just needs far greater attention to detail.

[rebelman]

I posted in conqueropoly (don't think they will be too impressed with my comments though)

[gimil]

I posted in conqueropoly (don't think they will be too impressed with my comments though)

rebelmans going to become the bad guys

[bryguy]

i no longer like rebelman

[gimil]

i no longer like rebelman

at least your discussion into this conversation was helpful . . .

[DiM]

woohooo rebelman is the new bad guy.

[gimil]

woohooo rebelman is the new bad guy.

at least for the greater cause. . .

[fireedud]

I posted in conqueropoly (don't think they will be too impressed with my comments though)

I'm going to try to join you.

[WidowMakers]

I think lack of interest or comments in a map just reflect the lack of interest or appeal of the idea. It takes a dedicated poster to comment on a map there are rather uninterested in. Lately there have been few 'block busters'. Iberia, malta, spaceness, feudal war, puget sound, etc are not quite house hold names nor are they terribly exciting. Esoteric maps might excite a few to a frenzy but the appeal is not broad enough to bring 50+ pages like a WW2 themed map.

I think if you are looking for trends in the foundry you might be missing the forest for the trees.

Sorry I have not posted earlier. I read through page 2 at wqork and got home to page 7. So before I posted I wanted to read everything.

I have to agree with mibi here. As many of you know I do not post a lot. When I do it is related to my maps, site issues, special projects and the maps I really like or see a big issue with when I glance over the posts. And here is the reason. I don't have tons of time to look over everything. And everyone else might not have the time either.

So this is what I do. I look over the maps I like or would want to see made and I comment on them. There are many maps I see that have ZERO appeal to me. I don't comment on them. Why you may ask?

2 reasons why I don't post on a map thread.

1) I don't like the idea. Simple as that. It does not interest me. Maybe because I think it is too complex, or too simple. Maybe because I don't like the gameplay direction or the map theme is not to my taste.
2) Posting that I don't like the idea will not matter. From a graphics (borders/army circles) or gameplay (bonus/borders) perspective I can comment and give my opinion. But if I already don't like a map, why would I use my already limited time to discuss a map that I really don't care if it gets made?

Now I understand that everyone does not like everything. I am sure that there are many people out there who do not like my maps. I am fine with that . the people who have posted on my threads have had positive and negative comments that were all used to help make the maps better. I have always appreciated that and will continue to use those comments to make my maps better.

But here is the deal. If I make a map idea, and only 20 people comment, will it ever get made? If I fulfill all of the requirements will it get made? How do we, as a foundry, determine what maps are desired by the community? Lately some of the maps coming out are VERY VERY complex for my taste. But that does not mean don't make them? No. They will eventually get quenched because there are enough people who will post and get them out there.

But because I may not like the idea, I will probably focus my attention elsewhere. As will others who do not like my new map ideas.

So basically, people will post on what they would like to play.
If you have a map idea and it slowly progresses through the foundry with a small number of comments or commenters be warned. Once a map reached FF, be prepared to get hit by everything if your graphics are sub par and the gameplay is bad.

I know this is supposed to happen in the main foundry but look what happened to Civil War and Puget Sound. They both look much better because of that.

Th only other thing that might help would be to have a CA for each forum that can sticky or move posts around to help stir up conversation by being fully dedicated to a specific subforum.

WM

[WidowMakers]

Question:How do we define lack of interest?
1) Number of posts
2) Number of posters

Because you could have 10 pages of 15 different posters per page saying it is a great idea (150 people).

or

You could have 20 pages of 3 people posting. (300 post but 3 people)

For example AoR: Magic made it to FF on page 18 and 30 posters in 6 days. Does that mean it was widely accepted?

I am not saying it should have not been made I am stating some numbers for the sake of discussion.

How again do we, as a group, determine what should and should not be made? Basically as I see it, you get enough people behind your idea ( as long as it fits within the rules of "How to make a map") and you can make anything. Is that what we want?


WM

[fireedud]

Question:How do we define lack of interest?
1) Number of posts
2) Number of posters

Because you could have 10 pages of 15 different posters per page saying it is a great idea (150 people).

or

You could have 20 pages of 3 people posting. (300 post but 3 people)

For example AoR: Magic made it to FF on page 18 and 30 posters in 6 days. Does that mean it was widely accepted?

I am not saying it should have not been made I am stating some numbers for the sake of discussion.

How again do we, as a group, determine what should and should not be made? Basically as I see it, you get enough people behind your idea ( as long as it fits within the rules of "How to make a map") and you can make anything. Is that what we want?


WM

AOR: Magic was a little diffent than most maps- it was sort of a revamp-most of the issues had already been sorted out.

[gimil]

Question:How do we define lack of interest?
1) Number of posts
2) Number of posters

Because you could have 10 pages of 15 different posters per page saying it is a great idea (150 people).

or

You could have 20 pages of 3 people posting. (300 post but 3 people)

For example AoR: Magic made it to FF on page 18 and 30 posters in 6 days. Does that mean it was widely accepted?

I am not saying it should have not been made I am stating some numbers for the sake of discussion.

How again do we, as a group, determine what should and should not be made? Basically as I see it, you get enough people behind your idea ( as long as it fits within the rules of "How to make a map") and you can make anything. Is that what we want?


WM

AOR: Magic was a little diffent than most maps- it was sort of a revamp-most of the issues had already been sorted out.

no it wasnt, new gameplay, new graphics, large XML changes. Its speed was due to the success of the first map.

[DiM]

Question:How do we define lack of interest?
1) Number of posts
2) Number of posters

Because you could have 10 pages of 15 different posters per page saying it is a great idea (150 people).

or

You could have 20 pages of 3 people posting. (300 post but 3 people)

For example AoR: Magic made it to FF on page 18 and 30 posters in 6 days. Does that mean it was widely accepted?

I am not saying it should have not been made I am stating some numbers for the sake of discussion.

How again do we, as a group, determine what should and should not be made? Basically as I see it, you get enough people behind your idea ( as long as it fits within the rules of "How to make a map") and you can make anything. Is that what we want?


WM

AOR: Magic was a little diffent than most maps- it was sort of a revamp-most of the issues had already been sorted out.

true. when i posted magic in the ideas it was almost finished graphically and only a few gameplay issues needed ironing along with small graphic updates.

[DiM]

Question:How do we define lack of interest?
1) Number of posts
2) Number of posters

Because you could have 10 pages of 15 different posters per page saying it is a great idea (150 people).

or

You could have 20 pages of 3 people posting. (300 post but 3 people)

For example AoR: Magic made it to FF on page 18 and 30 posters in 6 days. Does that mean it was widely accepted?

I am not saying it should have not been made I am stating some numbers for the sake of discussion.

How again do we, as a group, determine what should and should not be made? Basically as I see it, you get enough people behind your idea ( as long as it fits within the rules of "How to make a map") and you can make anything. Is that what we want?


WM

AOR: Magic was a little diffent than most maps- it was sort of a revamp-most of the issues had already been sorted out.

no it wasnt, new gameplay, new graphics, large XML changes. Its speed was due to the success of the first map.

and the speed at which i put up updates.

[WidowMakers]

Again I am not saying that it was wrong.

I am asking what are the number of posters/posts required to merit appeal for a map?

How again do we, as a group, determine what should and should not be made? Basically as I see it, you get enough people behind your idea ( as long as it fits within the rules of "How to make a map") and you can make anything. Is that what we want?

WM

[fireedud]

Again I am not saying that it was wrong.

I am asking what are the number of posters/posts required to merit appeal for a map?

How again do we, as a group, determine what should and should not be made? Basically as I see it, you get enough people behind your idea ( as long as it fits within the rules of "How to make a map") and you can make anything. Is that what we want?

WM

it really is on a case by case basis right now- Just compare Dim's AOR:Magic to Qwert's first WWII map.

[bryguy]

i forgot to read the rest of the board, so idk what its about


should have finished reading it by tomorrow

[DiM]

Again I am not saying that it was wrong.

I am asking what are the number of posters/posts required to merit appeal for a map?

How again do we, as a group, determine what should and should not be made? Basically as I see it, you get enough people behind your idea ( as long as it fits within the rules of "How to make a map") and you can make anything. Is that what we want?

WM

it's not just about number of posts/posters.

i can get at least 100 people to comment on a map if i want to. it's just a matter of sending pms to people i know. will that make my map interesting? certainly not. the interest in a map has to be determined by the foundry officials. that's why having more (preferably specialized) will help because they will be able to determine the level of interest and the honesty of the posters.

[wcaclimbing]

2 reasons why I don't post on a map thread.

1) I don't like the idea. Simple as that. It does not interest me. Maybe because I think it is too complex, or too simple. Maybe because I don't like the gameplay direction or the map theme is not to my taste.
2) Posting that I don't like the idea will not matter. From a graphics (borders/army circles) or gameplay (bonus/borders) perspective I can comment and give my opinion. But if I already don't like a map, why would I use my already limited time to discuss a map that I really don't care if it gets made?

I agree here.

If I don't like the idea, I won't post, because, even though my comment might help the map, it still wont have a huge effect on the final product and I probably wont be playing the map either way.

Also, apart from not liking a map and not having a few extra hours every day to spend in here, I don't post in a map if I think it is GOOD. That is because:
-----------------------
1. I have nothing else important to say. If i love the map and I think it is done, there is nothing else that I would have to say, besides things such as "omg i love the map quench quench quench!!!" and similar.

2. It's just adding waste to the important stuff. If I leave more comments, even though my comment won't help the final product (because i have nothing else to say) and I am already satisfied with how it looks, my post would just be another post in the thread that doesn't need to be there, taking attention from the posts that need to be seen and considered.

3. There is enough other stuff to do. If i like a map, i usually say what i have to say, all in one post, then leave the thread. Its up to the mapmaker to decide what suggestions get used, and its of no use to stay and debate my ideas, slowing up the mapmaking process and causing problems for the mapmaker. I comment once early on in production, after there is a reasonable image to comment on, and then I check back on it again once it has reached Final Forge.
-----------------------
So those are my reasons. Take what you want from it, complain, whatever. That is why I don't post on a lot of maps, and an alternative explanation to not getting any suggestions. If you aren't getting comments, its not always that you have a bad map, it might be that yours is good and no one has anything left to comment about until it reaches Final Forge.

[RjBeals]

There's no foundry death going on here. It's actually foundry addiction. Some on you are online way too much. There's a handful that keep up to date on most topics, and post at least a little in all map threads. I'm probably viewing the forum way to much for my own good as well, but my main interest is my map. I browse around and if I have time (like now, just got my kids to bed and wife is reading a magazine), I'll post a paragraph or two. But, there always seems to be something new going on.

I know in my dustbowl thread, there's only been a few common posters, who've stuck with it throughout, and then the scattered random pop-in who says "nice map". It's in FF now, and moving through there slowly also. But.. that might mean you guys like it and don't have anything to add. I know I liked the Bamboo Jack, and Duck & Cover, and AoMagic, but barely posted anything - because I don't have time to post "great job" over and over again.

I think the foundry is moving along fine. As long as we get the map organization project in place, and bigger maps allowed.

[bryguy]

There's no foundry death going on here. It's actually foundry addiction. Some on you are online way too much.

im JUST on 24/365 currently

[wcaclimbing]

I know in my dustbowl thread, there's only been a few common posters, who've stuck with it throughout, and then the scattered random pop-in who says "nice map".

Thats my situation, at least with that map.

I love the Dustbowl map, but i have nothing left to comment on, other than "nice map", as you said above. I popped in early on, when that map had just moved to the main foundry, and I've left it since then, because I like how it looks now.

Just a question? Would you prefer it if I would come and post "nice map, quench time" in your thread, or do you like it more when you don't have to see those comments?

[oaktown]

Just a question? Would you prefer it if I would come and post "nice map, quench time" in your thread, or do you like it more when you don't have to see those comments?

This depends entirely on who is making the comment. If it's somebody whose graphics skills I respect I appreciate the comment. If it's somebody who has been closely involved with the thread and who has previously been constructive and critical and helpful, I appreciate the comment. If it's some random Joe Mouse Clicker who just looked at my map for the first time it's a waste of space.

And if it's YOU, wca, well...

[RjBeals]

I appreciate all comments, no matter how trivial.