Conquer Club

Map Name: Templars
Mapmaker(s): SoN!c
Number of Territories: 109
Special Features: Ring of Charola 8 door before getting to base (and base is protected by a "bodyguard" that can retake base when nuked or zombified) 12 Nobles starting points with Overlords and Temples.
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: Following Chanakam2020 example, "CC need more maps" and watching Global Chat with same comments, it's been a while since a new map was made.



109 Territories, 15 Continents, 1 Objectives, 12 Start Positions, Min Reinforcements: 3

Continents:
England (4) Portugal (2) France (5) Holy Roman Empire (6) The Caliphate (8) Cyprus (2) Egypt (4) Outremer (10) Syria (6) Seluk Persia (9) Port D'Acre (2) Sultan Dominions (4) Templar Fleet West (7) Templar Fleet East (7) Templar Fleet (20)

Autodeploys:
Nobles (12): +2
Templar sea forts (2): +1
Crusader Stronghold (1): +1
Temples (4): +2

Map Image (4.17) here :





Proposed Gameplay:


So the map is divided into an East and Western section (world), just like back in the day (the ports Famagusta and La Rochelle connect via ship), but the travel to Outremer by ships is full of peril so -1 a turn.


Special bonusses like "Commander of Houses" = holding the same symbol gives extra bonus (like Aragon/Maldoim or New Temple/Acre..)
"Caliph bonus" = holding the 4 muslim terrs and some autodeploys.

The middle section will be used as map legend



Thoughts?

This is the map with neutrals and a small add-on (templar armies) as the comment was Caliph support bonus was too easy to hold on good deploy, so Templar armies can bomb it and 2 are neut:



also added a crusader route to get from west / east on northern side

not a bad start.

my first observation is that it's very hard to read any of the text because it's too small. it needs to be bigger. the troop circles will be much larger too.

when u post each image, put the version number, such as 1.1, in the title of the post, so that we can see the map progressing and easily refer to a particular version.

what's the name of the map? put this in the title.

ian.

I love the idea of the map.
Reminds me of Third Crusade and Conquer Rome two of my favorite maps. So it's a great start.
That being said I think 45 terts is way to small for a map with autodeploys, multi-target terts, ships and staff. for instance Third Crusade has 85 terts and Conquer Rome has 119. I know this is supposed to be a completed different map, but I think more terrts would help the map a lot.
Also I agree there is quite confusing some conecctions and legend seems to small to explain the features of the map.
I really wish new maps get done so pleas keep working on it.

Great advice! I'll start working on it, also clicking on the map show it's large size - it's huge? (2182x1232)

Keep advice coming, first time to do this

I got to work on the advice and added more terrs (and bonus regions), it's well over 80 terrs now (need to think first on site's before adding a few more), and tidy the graphs up



so you have "mamluk raiders" with a trebuchet (treb is not part of the "mamluk" bonus but it can bombard Templar/christian site's) and also a second base just like the map antartica - the second base is called the "grandmasters bodyguard" (the small shield) but the bodyguard can only attack the coat or arms (should it turn into a neut if you play it on zombie or nuke) or fort it (both autodeploy but the bodyguard just +1). Ofcourse the bodyguard also defends (first line of defense) against inner sanctum.

There are some more bonus regions and the "inner sanctum" devides into 8 (groundplan charola so it will be called "Charola Ring") - so from the center you then have to take another terr that matches with the other grandmasters clockwise (choose your door wisely because if you play this on fog you won't be able to see the troop count on your target so reading "fog on log" and "knowing" where to hit will be BIG - the charola "door" connects to "the bodyguard" then "the grandmaster coat of arms" to kill him


It's a "blanco map" for now (the legend needs to be added) and its 2200x1137 pixels (you have to click on it to see it large- i dont have a paid subscription like https://s3.amazonaws.com/ccmaps)

so click on it, then use the magnify glass symbol to see it large

added "The King of France" and "The King of Jerusalem" - (can be taking from the kingdom and gives +1 for every 2 terrs in the France kingdom and +1 for every 3 in jerusalem
i think it's getting better and better with your comments so keep it coming! will start on a version with legend soon (unless i get better comments first ofcourse!)

Size to play = https://imgur.com/a/3oOfqKJ (click to enlarge)

Okay here it is:

https://u.cubeupload.com/SoNic11111/TemplarGrandmasters2.png 102 terrs in total

click then doubleclick to see in true size


compressed version:



(click and doubleclick)

Im gonna let this sink in then do some fine tuning (perhaps an alternative win condition, small changes here and there) so good advice is most welcome!

Map inspiration by Conquer Rome, KCII for the trebuchet, Baltic Crusades (the autodeploys and -1 ships routes), Antartica (bases and "kill point") and Kabanellas (+ the desire to have some unique features like the Charola and others)

Got some small changes here:

The templar bodyguard has a helmet and a spear to make it more pronounced as "bodyguard" and altered the win condition and some bonusses + small changes overall on lay-out, here and there some "artistic freedom" as historical authenticity or geographic correct location of places would make it awkward, hence some locations that are not historical correct but have a templar connection in some way..

also the bonus section needs to be place above or below the map as the map is 1200 pix width..

its 790 pix high so got 210 pix space for the legend.. will be tight (see the map on 1200pix width in OP)

Okay, so this is the size fitted for CC (1200x1000 px):




The legend will be shorter and in the bottem (still thinking on the best bonus balance), the victory condition will be stated in the center part and the ring of charola needs a bit more "halo" effect, the templare ships should have a bit more "foggy" look

also the overlords should be able to bomb a bit?


Thoughts?

Also would wanna know if a player can have 2 fixed starting positions on XML? Because if its random then the Bodyguard has to be a neut..

First time with a legend included and some new idea's, Build the map from scratch again out of my head so you'll notice a lot of changes (like the krak the chevaliers, the bodyguard helmet spear and.. definetly some improvements here and there - but also some steps back i feel - way too many terrs - but let's keep the best so never too much if you look like it like that - so still some work needs to be done but advice is highly appreciated - next version needs the map back a bit bigger so back to 3.0 but with the good stuff from 4.0

3.1 will be decent!

Cool idea, great theming, and good to see some activity in the Map Foundry again!

Overall, it feels like you might be trying to throw in a few too many ideas, hurting the clarity of the map. Are the caravan routes part of Almoravid or Egypt respectively? Why do Navarre, Troyes and Tripoli have different colors? Are there special meanings behind the symbols next to Jaffa, Hebron, Temple mount? Which templar is behind which door of the inner sanctum? Do countries count as territories for blocking connections, or can rome attack Genoa? Can you attack over water? If you can't attack over water, how do you reach the Almoravid Empire? If you can attack over water, can Alexandria attack Mamistra, and why? Can Genoa and the Commandery of St. John attack each other? Which territories are considered part of the holy land? From where can you take the Templar Armies? These are all questions I currently wouldn't be able to answer you from merely looking at the map.

I don't know to what extend the supersize policy (https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=182136) is still valid. If that policy is still valid, then even as a supersize map, it would need a small version of 780 by 650 pixels, and map width is currently at the maximum. Standard size limits would be 840 by 800 pixels for the large map, and 630 by 600 for the small version.

A final note: white on a yellow background is very difficult to read.

MichelSableheart wrote:Cool idea, great theming, and good to see some activity in the Map Foundry again!

Overall, it feels like you might be trying to throw in a few too many ideas, hurting the clarity of the map. Are the caravan routes part of Almoravid or Egypt respectively? Why do Navarre, Troyes and Tripoli have different colors? Are there special meanings behind the symbols next to Jaffa, Hebron, Temple mount? Which templar is behind which door of the inner sanctum? Do countries count as territories for blocking connections, or can rome attack Genoa? Can you attack over water? If you can't attack over water, how do you reach the Almoravid Empire? If you can attack over water, can Alexandria attack Mamistra, and why? Can Genoa and the Commandery of St. John attack each other? Which territories are considered part of the holy land? From where can you take the Templar Armies? These are all questions I currently wouldn't be able to answer you from merely looking at the map.

I don't know to what extend the supersize policy (https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=182136) is still valid. If that policy is still valid, then even as a supersize map, it would need a small version of 780 by 650 pixels, and map width is currently at the maximum. Standard size limits would be 840 by 800 pixels for the large map, and 630 by 600 for the small version.

A final note: white on a yellow background is very difficult to read.

Thx for feedback!

"it feels like you might be trying to throw in a few too many ideas, hurting the clarity of the map"

As mentioned in the 4.0 post this version (4.0) is "way too packed" indeed - somethings have to go but the question is what exactly

"Are the caravan routes part of Almoravid or Egypt respectively?"

- great feedback! - your right, thats confusing so they will have to be redone in another color (not a part of Egypt/Almoravid)

Why do Navarre, Troyes and Tripoli have different colors?

because these are autodeploy terrs - they have the star of david symbol next to them and the red colored dots are the Templar sites (to be taken from the Grandmaster) so the Grandmaster can't take these autodeploys (that would be too easy) - they have to be won "from the ground"hence they have to be in a different color
But perhaps the solution is to get rid of these autodeploys terrs?

"Are there special meanings behind the symbols next to Jaffa, Hebron, Temple mount?"

YES, as stated in the legend "Commander of Houses bonus" grants +1 for every "dual templar symbol". So there are a lot of "dual terrs" (with the same symbol only to appear twice on the map)
for example Jaffa and Arwad, Hebron and Antioch, Aragon and Mont Real...if you hold two "dual symbols" you get +1(if a symbol appears for example 3 times on the map it is not a "dual symbol")
Also Temple Mount has a unique symbol as it is so important to hold (as gateway to objectives/win), so is Tomar and the Paris Temple (the only 3 with a unique symbol)

"Which templar is behind which door of the inner sanctum?"

As stated in the legend you "have to choose your door wisely" - its Grandmasters afterall - but the solution is real simple: left upper corner of the charola ring goes to left upper grandmaster bodyguard, right bottom corner goes to...well you have it

"Do countries count as territories for blocking connections, or can rome attack Genoa?" the legend says "adjacent to the rule of.. the freemason logo ("The Square and Compasses" symbol) so Rome should be able to attack Genoa - but perhaps too complicated so the solution is perhaps a redesign of the map with "classic territories borders" instead of the Compass (drawing tool) - its just that logo is so important in freemasonry and with the templar connection i wanted to incorporate that

"Can you attack over water? If you can't attack over water, how do you reach the Almoravid Empire?"

, NO you cant (except small ports terrs - symbolised by the small boat’s wheel - can reach the adjacent port that has a small boats wheel logo aswell - like Templetown Church in Ireland and Mount St Michael in England

So the map needs these symbols on Almoravid empire at least (or another solution) - and stated in the legend- GREAT FEEDBACK!! thanks for noticing that error!

"Can Genoa and the Commandery of St. John attack each other?

" No they are not adjacent to the rule of the Compass logo/ (drawing tool)

"Which territories are considered part of the holy land?"

You have to know your history for this one..otherwise you'll learn it by playing.. - "the holy land" and what it includes is a known fact afterall (like the "USA")- so Cyprus for example is not a part of the Holy Land

"From where can you take the Templar Armies?"

The legend says that the Grandmaster can get any templar site in its region and the templar army is included as templar site (basically "templar sites" = all the red dots) But i get you because the 4 "Donatus" terrs are not supposed to have a red dot. Needs to be changed like it was in the 3.0 version.

A final note: white on a yellow background is very difficult to read.

Again GREAT feedback, will have to be changed then!

the supersize policy

- also great feedback, but we live in 2023.. people have wide screens these days, and in any case 630 by 600 pixels would mean bye bye - then lets stop making new maps and wait till the last players turns off the lights of CC

Think about it: "630 by 600 pixels" in 2023? you have to move with the times!

SoN!c wrote:

MichelSableheart wrote:Standard size limits would be 840 by 800 pixels for the large map, and 630 by 600 for the small version.

- also great feedback, but we live in 2023.. people have wide screens these days

some people have wide screens. this is indeed 2023 and many others play primarily on their phones.

the latest update is advanced enough to be [moved] to the main foundry workshop.

ian.

LOL, who plays CC on their phone??? it's a bloody nightmare...

Got to work on the advice so here is 6.0 lol: (without the legend part, that will be added later once this is good)

so OUT: Cicilian armenia is kicked, so are the ships, the autodeploys (at least 4), the templar armies, the crusader route west to east and the camel caravan traderoute + baibars slinger

and IN: each overlord has his own donatus to capture, big boatwheels connect west with east, small boatwheels only connect regional and adjacent, color on the Christian Nations caps is changed to green





and here is 6.1 (on the small version 780x650 pixels):

remade the inner sanctum here and added 2 almoravid terrs

https://u.cubeupload.com/SoNic11111/upl ... sion78.png

compressed version:

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https://ibb.co/QYRc5mN

thank u for being prepared to work with a smaller size than is ideal.

SoN!c wrote:Also would wanna know if a player can have 2 fixed starting positions on XML? Because if its random then the Bodyguard has to be a neut..

can u explain the question on start positions a bit more?

ian.

I think I know what u mean. U can have as many fixed positions as needed. For instance Pot Mosbi a player will always have the tert next to its tribe or Spanis Armada a player will have all 4 terts of a Ship.

But I still am a bit confused about all the gimicks and bonus of the map. I will try to look into it more closely.

iancanton wrote:thank u for being prepared to work with a smaller size than is ideal.

SoN!c wrote:Also would wanna know if a player can have 2 fixed starting positions on XML? Because if its random then the Bodyguard has to be a neut..

can u explain the question on start positions a bit more?

ian.

left and right side have 4 shields (each shield is the coat of arms of a templar grandmaster)

This is the starting position for each player (8 players) and it autodeploys +3.

Below each Grandmasters coat of arms is a small shield depicting the Templar "Baucent" .

This small shield would be the "bodyguard position" and autodeploys +1.

Law already answered thanks!

some new idea's, grandmasters are out, 4 temples (to hold as win) are in

You have a fixed position as one of the 8 shields in the bottom (8 player map) with autodeploy of +2

then obviously the map needs some more terrs..

each side of the map has an "overlord" as well (can bomb anything on it's side)

still needs some condition to get to the spawn point (to eliminate one), was thinking one the castle (krak the chevaliers) that can attack starting point as a 8 killer neut terr

So glad u continue with the map, I think the Win con is good, would like to see those terts u talk about. And hopefully there is the first map in years in CC

Well there or lots of ideas but previous is the "fixed" basic idea.

The one that is closest is this one:



On that version im thinking that the temples should connect west to east side (and east to west) and you need both overlords as well to win

It's 840x800 pixels and the black part at the bottom is where the legend should come

Looking good!

this is the other idea :



On this one the connections are more easy to understand (seas connect but revert to 1)

So for example "viking" connects to Scotland if you hold the north sea (killer neut)

But with the colours it's more crowded so the castles had to go too, so idea now is nobles (auto deploy +2 spawn) can attack any christian ters on their side, and the overlord has to be taken from Mount Temple on the East and the Paris Temple on the West.

The Overlord can take the nobles (on his side).

The temples connect east to west and west to east (the only way to get on the other side besides drop)

Now it needs some small balance in the west, im thinking on a few autodeploys there

Templar win condition is holding all 4 temples + both overlords OR 'Salah Al Din" wins by uniting all muslim terrs and Temple Mount

I have to agree that the connections are a lot clearer in the second one. It could be an idea to mark the borders for the sea territories, to make those connections even more clear?

MichelSableheart wrote:I have to agree that the connections are a lot clearer in the second one. It could be an idea to mark the borders for the sea territories, to make those connections even more clear?

Perhaps like this?



Terrs that can access the sea have a small anchor